APP - Is THIS what conservatives mean when they boast about American 'exceptionalism'?

Bfgrn

New member
And when liberals condemn atrocities like this, is that why conservatives label us traitors and UN-American?

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WikiLeaks Documents Detail Rape, Abuse, Murder

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Among the details from the approximately 400,000, collected from field reports sent in by American units in the field between 2004 and 2009, and leaked to the news outlets are that:

- U.S. authorities failed to investigate hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape and even murder by Iraqi police and soldiers whose conduct appears to be systematic and normally unpunished.

- Americans often turned a blind eye to Iraqis being tortured and abused by other Iraqis in secret prisons.

- Iran's military - to a further extent than previously known - intervened aggressively in support of Shiite combatants, offering weapons, training and sanctuary.

- A U.S. helicopter gunship involved in a notorious Baghdad incident had previously killed Iraqi insurgents after they tried to surrender.

- According to one tabulation, there have been 100,000 civilian causalities - greater than the numbers previously made public, many of them killed by American troops but most of them were killed by other Iraqis.

WikiLeaks Documents Detail Rape, Abuse, Murder - World Watch - CBS News


Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing.
Dwight D. Eisenhower
 
And when liberals condemn atrocities like this, is that why conservatives label us traitors and UN-American?

logo_cbsnews.jpg


WikiLeaks Documents Detail Rape, Abuse, Murder

image6964294x.jpg


Among the details from the approximately 400,000, collected from field reports sent in by American units in the field between 2004 and 2009, and leaked to the news outlets are that:

- U.S. authorities failed to investigate hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape and even murder by Iraqi police and soldiers whose conduct appears to be systematic and normally unpunished.

- Americans often turned a blind eye to Iraqis being tortured and abused by other Iraqis in secret prisons.

- Iran's military - to a further extent than previously known - intervened aggressively in support of Shiite combatants, offering weapons, training and sanctuary.

- A U.S. helicopter gunship involved in a notorious Baghdad incident had previously killed Iraqi insurgents after they tried to surrender.

- According to one tabulation, there have been 100,000 civilian causalities - greater than the numbers previously made public, many of them killed by American troops but most of them were killed by other Iraqis.

WikiLeaks Documents Detail Rape, Abuse, Murder - World Watch - CBS News


Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing.
Dwight D. Eisenhower

It does seem that some elements in the military were happy to let the Iraqis perform torture by proxy.
 
i don't trust the summation done by this source...

the brief summation i read from a news outlet put most of the blame on the iraqis....further...i fail to see what this has to do with slamming conservatives

nice job using the deaths and rapes of innocent women and children and men in order to push your political agenda :fu:
 
i don't trust the summation done by this source...

the brief summation i read from a news outlet put most of the blame on the iraqis....further...i fail to see what this has to do with slamming conservatives

nice job using the deaths and rapes of innocent women and children and men in order to push your political agenda :fu:

It was George Orwell who said: "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

It was Albert Camus who said:" It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners."

It was Mahatma Gandhi who said: "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?"

It was President Eisenhower who said: "Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing."

It was President Kennedy who said: "The world knows America will never start a war"

It was President Reagan who said: "No mother would ever willingly sacrifice her sons for territorial gain, for economic advantage, for ideology."

It was General William Tecumseh Sherman who said: "It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood...War is hell."

AND THEN, It was President G.W. Bush who said: "Our nation is somewhat sad, but we’re angry. There’s a certain level of blood lust, but we won’t let it drive our reaction. We’re steady, clear-eyed and patient, but pretty soon we’ll have to start displaying scalps."


After 7 years of hearing your 'side of the aisle' serve as cheerleaders for torture, Hirohito sneak attacks, needless killing of innocent men, women and children, pushing preventative war and wars of ideology and THEN blaming the victims, whose only crime was living under a dictator America helped install, it's time to face the realities. There are good reasons WHY so many wise men have spoken out against war and worked so hard to avoid it. War is the scourge of mankind.



“Dante once said that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality”
President John F. Kennedy
 
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you dishonest hack...i've always condemned any atrocities by any side, ours included

nice try, but fail

Condemning atrocities are not enough. It's TOO LATE. Intelligent people understand that atrocities IS the definition of war.

Yea, just like NOW all the 'conservatives' SAY they spoke out against Bush spending like a drunken sailor. Hey, I can't say what you personally did or didn't say, but many, many, many more liberals than conservatives were against the immoral invasion of Iraq, Gitmo and torture.

I spent many a nights arguing with conservatives and Republicans on other message boards all during the war, I was called every name in the book, from anti-American, bleeding heart, liberal wimp, to being a traitor because I was against the invasion of Iraq, torture, Gitmo and I spoke out against atrocities that occurred. I can count on one hand the conservatives over all those years who were against the war.

Here is something I posted a number of years ago after 'Shock & Awe' and then the 'Mission accomplished' fiasco...why don't you show me how YOU spoke out Yurt?
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Just shock, no awe

The people of America looked on in AWE from the comfort of their homes.

The people of Iraq sought comfort from the SHOCK and grief of searching the rubble for remnants of their homes and loved ones!

America’s billion dollar war machine annihilated Iraq’s military; sons and fathers forced to serve under a man they had no allegiance to. But, we gave them a choice; their executioner: the US war machine or Saddam.

But even with billion dollar war machines, there are the residuals: innocent mothers, children, infants, nieces and nephews, neighbors, teachers, store owners and bus drivers. Every Iraqi lost someone they loved or knew.

NOW Americans wonder WHY the people of Iraq didn’t place flowers in the end of our rifles. We were told this would be a “cakewalk” and we would be welcomed as liberators!

We destroyed ANY chance of success in Iraq when we wiped out the Iraq Army. THEY WERE the trained security the government of Iraq can not provide.

I recall the sickening images of human beings being blown to 1000 pieces by helicopter cannons. AWE!! America says. WE ARE good at this killing stuff. Americans wondered if X-BOX 360 will come out with THIS game in time for junior’s Christmas.

Maybe the President can send his mother to smooth things over. "They're underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them"

Now a million good citizens of Iraq flee at a rate of 3,000 per day!!! (AP)

This horrible war and conditions that were BETTER under Saddam drive them from their homeland!


”Mission accomplished?”

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I think it’s just crazy. It's part of that worldview that led us to where we are. Think about it. The United States went and negotiated with and supported Saddam Hussein himself against Iran under this notion that sometimes my enemy is my friend. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That emboldened Saddam Hussein and allowed him to invade Kuwait. It made us go to war that we did not finish and did not take Saddam Hussein out.
Former Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) 12/11/06 (The Hill)
 
It was George Orwell who said: "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

It was Albert Camus who said:" It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners."

It was Mahatma Gandhi who said: "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?"

It was President Eisenhower who said: "Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing."

It was President Kennedy who said: "The world knows America will never start a war"

It was President Reagan who said: "No mother would ever willingly sacrifice her sons for territorial gain, for economic advantage, for ideology."

It was General William Tecumseh Sherman who said: "It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood...War is hell."

AND THEN, It was President G.W. Bush who said: "Our nation is somewhat sad, but we’re angry. There’s a certain level of blood lust, but we won’t let it drive our reaction. We’re steady, clear-eyed and patient, but pretty soon we’ll have to start displaying scalps."


After 7 years of hearing your 'side of the aisle' serve as cheerleaders for torture, Hirohito sneak attacks, needless killing of innocent men, women and children, pushing preventative war and wars of ideology and THEN blaming the victims, whose only crime was living under a dictator America helped install, it's time to face the realities. There are good reasons WHY so many wise men have spoken out against war and worked so hard to avoid it. War is the scourge of mankind.



“Dante once said that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality”
President John F. Kennedy

Actually you've combined two quotes from Sherman. He actually never said "War is hell" but made the following statement when addressing a graduating class at the Ohio State University from which the phrase "War is hell" has been derived.

"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but boys, it is all hell."
 
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Actually you've combined two quotes from Sherman. He actually never said "War is hell" but made the following statement when addressing a graduating class at the Ohio State University from which the phrase "War is hell" has been derived.

"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but boys, it is all hell."

You remind me of a quote by Oscar Wilde: "A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing."
 
And when liberals condemn atrocities like this, is that why conservatives label us traitors and UN-American?

logo_cbsnews.jpg


WikiLeaks Documents Detail Rape, Abuse, Murder

image6964294x.jpg


Among the details from the approximately 400,000, collected from field reports sent in by American units in the field between 2004 and 2009, and leaked to the news outlets are that:

- U.S. authorities failed to investigate hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape and even murder by Iraqi police and soldiers whose conduct appears to be systematic and normally unpunished.

- Americans often turned a blind eye to Iraqis being tortured and abused by other Iraqis in secret prisons.

- Iran's military - to a further extent than previously known - intervened aggressively in support of Shiite combatants, offering weapons, training and sanctuary.

- A U.S. helicopter gunship involved in a notorious Baghdad incident had previously killed Iraqi insurgents after they tried to surrender.

- According to one tabulation, there have been 100,000 civilian causalities - greater than the numbers previously made public, many of them killed by American troops but most of them were killed by other Iraqis.

WikiLeaks Documents Detail Rape, Abuse, Murder - World Watch - CBS News


Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing.
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Gawd...makes you sick doesn't it, but this lady's and gentlemen is war and you can't dress it up and make it pretty. It makes humans act very inhumane! Americans have never had the stomach for all out war! These are the reasons. We like clean wars, but there are no such things, so we just pretend they are clean.

My husband's dreams have returned. He was at peace for a few years, but now, for whatever reason they are coming back. I hate all war it changes people forever!
 
The sad thing is, all of us anti-war protesters could see it coming back in 2002-2003, but we weren't believed.
We were call all kinds of vile names by our fellow Americans, but we stood our ground because we knew what happens, we experienced it before...
 
i don't trust the summation done by this source...

the brief summation i read from a news outlet put most of the blame on the iraqis....further...i fail to see what this has to do with slamming conservatives

nice job using the deaths and rapes of innocent women and children and men in order to push your political agenda :fu:
The war was political! It was all about politics, and if you still believe otherwise, well, I pity the fool!
 
It was George Orwell who said: "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

It was Albert Camus who said:" It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners."

It was Mahatma Gandhi who said: "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?"

It was President Eisenhower who said: "Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing."

It was President Kennedy who said: "The world knows America will never start a war"

It was President Reagan who said: "No mother would ever willingly sacrifice her sons for territorial gain, for economic advantage, for ideology."

It was General William Tecumseh Sherman who said: "It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood...War is hell."

AND THEN, It was President G.W. Bush who said: "Our nation is somewhat sad, but we’re angry. There’s a certain level of blood lust, but we won’t let it drive our reaction. We’re steady, clear-eyed and patient, but pretty soon we’ll have to start displaying scalps."


After 7 years of hearing your 'side of the aisle' serve as cheerleaders for torture, Hirohito sneak attacks, needless killing of innocent men, women and children, pushing preventative war and wars of ideology and THEN blaming the victims, whose only crime was living under a dictator America helped install, it's time to face the realities. There are good reasons WHY so many wise men have spoken out against war and worked so hard to avoid it. War is the scourge of mankind.



“Dante once said that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality”
President John F. Kennedy
I am giving you a standing ovation, in case you can't tell!
 
'You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rana again.'

Thanks Rana. I hope your husband can overcome his nightmares. Has he ever sought help at the VA?

"War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today."
John F. Kennedy

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According to Author, Schlesinger's – A Thousand Days, Page 87-88.

“John F. Kennedy went to San Francisco in June of 1945 as a special writer for the Hearst press to watch the founding of the United Nations. For a young veteran, with stabbing memories of violence and death, it was in a way a disenchanting experience. But for a student of politics it was an indispensable education.

“ ‘It would be very easy to write a letter to you that was angry,’ he observed afterward to a PT-boat friend who had sought his opinion of the conference... ‘The international relinquishing of sovereignty would have to spring from the people – it would have to be so strong that the elected delegates would be turned out of office if they failed to do it.... We must face the truth that the people have not been horrified by war to a sufficient extent to force them to go to any extent rather than have another war.... War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.’ ”

Reference Technician
John F. Kennedy Library
 
'You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rana again.'

Thanks Rana. I hope your husband can overcome his nightmares. Has he ever sought help at the VA?

"War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today."
John F. Kennedy

-----------------------------------------------------------------
According to Author, Schlesinger's – A Thousand Days, Page 87-88.

“John F. Kennedy went to San Francisco in June of 1945 as a special writer for the Hearst press to watch the founding of the United Nations. For a young veteran, with stabbing memories of violence and death, it was in a way a disenchanting experience. But for a student of politics it was an indispensable education.

“ ‘It would be very easy to write a letter to you that was angry,’ he observed afterward to a PT-boat friend who had sought his opinion of the conference... ‘The international relinquishing of sovereignty would have to spring from the people – it would have to be so strong that the elected delegates would be turned out of office if they failed to do it.... We must face the truth that the people have not been horrified by war to a sufficient extent to force them to go to any extent rather than have another war.... War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.’ ”

Reference Technician
John F. Kennedy Library
No, I have implored him to go and talk to them, but the thing that is helping and also hurting him is he has been counsel to two of our friends who have been to Afghanistan and Iraq. He talks these guys through their pain and it dredges a lot of his up. My brother in law was here for a short trip, he is a West Point grad and retired Col. and he had no idea Bud was so heavily decorated! I showed him Bud's scrap book and citations, much to Bud chagrin! Al wanted me to post it on facebook so Bud's nephews/nieces in the military, there are 6 of them, could see what he has done for his country. Bud won't do it, so I will. Al has known him for over 30 years and did not know that he was at Dak To and Hill 875. My husband is an amazing man, who still fights his demons. People don't believe the horror stories about war, and what people are capable of doing, but my husband has seen them first hand.

Sorry for going off, I just love the man and we have had some trials over the last couple of years, but I have not been through the hell he has, even with my disease! He is a true hero and one admire and love. I just wish I could make it all better for him! I will urge him again to talk to someone, he claims that all he needs is my love! and his children and grand children and I know, this is true, too!
 
What's up with all of these JFK quotes? One could almost think he was a good president the way they keep being tossed around...

Good? So good Threedee, that I don't believe you and I would not be having this conversation if someone other than John Kennedy was President in 1962. We'd be in a long nuclear winter with major parts of America in ruins.

I've read a lot about our 35th President. I think Jack Kennedy was a great man. A man that was brilliantly smart, but he possessed a wisdom beyond his years. He cared about our country, our people and was deeply committed to peace. Had he not been removed by a coup d'état in broad daylight on an American street, this would be a vastly different country...for the better.

Here's something I wrote about him:

John F. Kennedy was the most "human" President in my lifetime. No man had more influence on my own political views. He was a man for all times. He possessed wisdom and scope well beyond his years. And he had an altruistic heart for humanity that ALL leaders should be required to have.

My favorite JFK speech was at Amherst College less than a month before his murder. He recites words of Robert Frost; but reveals to us John Kennedy:

"I have been" he wrote, "one acquainted with the night." And because he knew the midnight as well as the high noon, because he understood the ordeal as well as the triumph of the human spirit, he gave his age strength with which to overcome despair. At bottom, he held a deep faith in the spirit of man..."

At a time in life when we believe we are "invincible", John Kennedy confronted his own mortality. A young man that received the last rights of the Church 3 times in his young life. It produced a perspective and wisdom of the ages.

When he faced dire circumstances as President, JFK's heart was always in the same place. After confronting Khrushchev's nuclear brinkmanship in Vienna, he broke down to Bobby: “you know it’s just so implausible that humans could allow this to happen. Bob, it doesn’t matter about you and me; were adults, we’ve lived, but the thought of destroying millions of children that never had a chance.”

Bobby confided to Hugh Sidey of Time Magazine: “I had never seen my brother weep; until he came back from the Vienna Summit and he felt we could not escape a nuclear exchange of some kind.”

That "human" weakness may have saved this planet from a nuclear winter.

It was those same beliefs that guided President Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crisis; an event that we have learned recently was much closer to WWIII than the history books tell us.

Excerpt from The Lessons of JFK: Warrior For Peace

Throughout the 13-day Cuban missile crisis, Kennedy was under relentless pressure from LeMay and nearly his entire national-security circle to "fry" Cuba, in the Air Force chief's memorable language. But J.F.K., whose only key support in the increasingly tense Cabinet Room meetings came from his brother Bobby and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, kept searching for a nonmilitary solution. When Kennedy, assiduously working the back channels to the Kremlin, finally succeeded in cutting a deal with Khrushchev, the world survived "the most dangerous moment in human history," in Schlesinger's words. But no one at the time knew just how dangerous. Years later, attending the 40th anniversary of the crisis at a conference in Havana, Schlesinger, Sorensen and McNamara were stunned to learn that if U.S. forces had attacked Cuba, Russian commanders on the island were authorized to respond with tactical and strategic nuclear missiles. The Joint Chiefs had assured Kennedy during the crisis that "no nuclear warheads were in Cuba at the time," Sorensen grimly noted. "They were wrong." If Kennedy had bowed to his military advisers' pressure, a vast swath of the urban U.S. within missile range of the Soviet installations in Cuba could have been reduced to radioactive rubble.

Thank God for JFK’s wisdom and weakness…

The speech
President John F. Kennedy

October 26, 1963
Dedication of The Robert Frost Library at Amherst College. Click here to listen to this speech.

Excerpts:

The President:

Robert Frost said:

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

I hope that road will not be the less traveled by, and I hope your commitment to the Great Republic's interest in the years to come will be worthy of your long inheritance since your beginning.

This day devoted to the memory of Robert Frost offers an opportunity for reflection which is prized by politicians as well as by others, and even by poets, for Robert Frost was one of the granite figures of our time in America. He was supremely two things: an artist and an American. A nation reveals itself not only by the men it produces but also by the men it honors, the men it remembers.

In America, our heroes have customarily run to men of large accomplishments. But today this college and country honors a man whose contribution was not to our size but to our spirit, not to our political beliefs but to our insight, not to our self-esteem, but to our self- comprehension. In honoring Robert Frost, we therefore can pay honor to the deepest sources of our national strength. That strength takes many forms, and the most obvious forms are not always the most significant. The men who create power make an indispensable contribution to the Nation's greatness, but the men who question power make a contribution just as indispensable, especially when that questioning is disinterested, for they determine whether we use power or power uses us.

Our national strength matters, but the spirit which informs and controls our strength matters just as much. This was the special significance of Robert Frost. He brought an unsparing instinct for reality to bear on the platitudes and pieties of society. His sense of the human tragedy fortified him against self-deception and easy consolation. "I have been" he wrote, "one acquainted with the night." And because he knew the midnight as well as the high noon, because he understood the ordeal as well as the triumph of the human spirit, he gave his age strength with which to overcome despair. At bottom, he held a deep faith in the spirit of man, and it is hardly an accident that Robert Frost coupled poetry and power, for he saw poetry as the means of saving power from itself.

When power leads men towards arrogance, poetry reminds him of his limitations. When power narrows the areas of man's concern, poetry reminds him of the richness and diversity of his existence. When power corrupts, poetry cleanses. For art establishes the basic human truth which must serve as the touchstone of our judgment.

The artist, however faithful to his personal vision of reality, becomes the last champion of the individual mind and sensibility against an intrusive society and an officious state. The great artist is thus a solitary figure. He has, as Frost said, a lover's quarrel with the world. In pursuing his perceptions of reality, he must often sail against the currents of his time. This is not a popular role. If Robert Frost was much honored in his lifetime, it was because a good many preferred to ignore his darker truths. Yet in retrospect, we see how the artist's fidelity has strengthened the fibre of our national life.

If sometimes our great artist have been the most critical of our society, it is because their sensitivity and their concern for justice, which must motivate any true artist, makes him aware that our Nation falls short of its highest potential. I see little of more importance to the future of our country and our civilization than full recognition of the place of the artist.

If art is to nourish the roots of our culture, society must set the artist free to follow his vision wherever it takes him. We must never forget that art is not a form of propaganda; it is a form of truth. And as Mr. MacLeish once remarked of poets, there is nothing worse for our trade than to be in style. In free society art is not a weapon and it does not belong to the spheres of polemic and ideology. Artists are not engineers of the soul. It may be different elsewhere. But democratic society--in it, the highest duty of the writer, the composer, the artist is to remain true to himself and to let the chips fall where they may. In serving his vision of the truth, the artist best serves his nation. And the nation which disdains the mission of art invites the fate of Robert Frost's hired man, the fate of having "nothing to look backward to with pride, and nothing to look forward to with hope.”

I look forward to a great future for America, a future in which our country will match its military strength with our moral restraint, its wealth with our wisdom, its power with our purpose. I look forward to an America which will not be afraid of grace and beauty, which will protect the beauty of our natural environment, which will preserve the great old American houses and squares and parks of our national past, and which will build handsome and balanced cities for our future.

I look forward to an America which will reward achievement in the arts as we reward achievement in business or statecraft. I look forward to an America which will steadily raise the standards of artistic accomplishment and which will steadily enlarge cultural opportunities for all of our citizens. And I look forward to an America which commands respect throughout the world not only for its strength but for its civilization as well.

And I look forward to a world which will be safe not only for democracy and diversity but also for personal distinction.

President John F. Kennedy - October 26, 1963
Full speech with audio - http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historica...Desk/Speeches/JFK/003POF03Amherst10261963.htm
 
Gawd...makes you sick doesn't it, but this lady's and gentlemen is war and you can't dress it up and make it pretty. It makes humans act very inhumane! Americans have never had the stomach for all out war! These are the reasons. We like clean wars, but there are no such things, so we just pretend they are clean.

My husband's dreams have returned. He was at peace for a few years, but now, for whatever reason they are coming back. I hate all war it changes people forever!
Hmmm you just reminded me of another Sherman quote when he ordered the forced evacuation of all civilians from Atlanta some of the town fathers petitioned him to have mercy upon the old, very young and infirm.

"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace."
 
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