Jebus died for your sins?

Guno צְבִי

We fight, We win
The Tanakh is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.'

his is why Jews do not believe there was any redemptive power at all in Jesus' death. Such a belief is unbiblical; it has no basis in the sacred text and no justification in Jewish theology. This doctrine can be seen as an invention for the sake of post-event rationalization, in other words, to give meaning and purpose to the crucifixion after the fact.

Some Christians may choose to interpret other verses in the Bible to indicate the opposite, that one CAN die for the sins of another. If that were the case, this would mean that Gd changed His mind, or that He did not mean what He said in Deuteronomy 24:16: 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.'

But Gd does not change either His mind or His nature, as we read in Malachi 3:6,

For I am the Etrnl, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

In a newer technique, some Christians are now quoting rabbinic writings to make it seem as if the rabbis accepted this concept of vicarious atonement. However, even if several respected rabbis did agree with this idea, we must still go by what the Bible states, and the Bible states, in no uncertain terms, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.'
 
Interesting. But what of the "sins of the father shall be visited upon the children"?
Numbers 14:18:
  • Numbers 14:18: "The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation"

However, Ezekiel 18:19-23 says that a son should not bear the iniquity of the father, and vice versa:
 
The Tanakh is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another.
This was vomited directly from an AI bot, e.g. ChatGPT. It is, of course, erroneous. The Tanakh does not prohibit any Messiah from dying for man's sins. All the Tanakh addresses is the point of justice, i.e. that one shall only be found guilty of his own transgressions, not of anyone else's.
 
The Tanakh is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.'

his is why Jews do not believe there was any redemptive power at all in Jesus' death. Such a belief is unbiblical; it has no basis in the sacred text and no justification in Jewish theology. This doctrine can be seen as an invention for the sake of post-event rationalization, in other words, to give meaning and purpose to the crucifixion after the fact.

Some Christians may choose to interpret other verses in the Bible to indicate the opposite, that one CAN die for the sins of another. If that were the case, this would mean that Gd changed His mind, or that He did not mean what He said in Deuteronomy 24:16: 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.'

But Gd does not change either His mind or His nature, as we read in Malachi 3:6,

For I am the Etrnl, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

In a newer technique, some Christians are now quoting rabbinic writings to make it seem as if the rabbis accepted this concept of vicarious atonement. However, even if several respected rabbis did agree with this idea, we must still go by what the Bible states, and the Bible states, in no uncertain terms, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.'
under Jewish law, should christians be put to death for heresy and idol worship, for insisting on their bizarre trinitarian doctrine?
 
The Tanakh is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.'

his is why Jews do not believe there was any redemptive power at all in Jesus' death. Such a belief is unbiblical; it has no basis in the sacred text and no justification in Jewish theology. This doctrine can be seen as an invention for the sake of post-event rationalization, in other words, to give meaning and purpose to the crucifixion after the fact.

Some Christians may choose to interpret other verses in the Bible to indicate the opposite, that one CAN die for the sins of another. If that were the case, this would mean that Gd changed His mind, or that He did not mean what He said in Deuteronomy 24:16: 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.'

But Gd does not change either His mind or His nature, as we read in Malachi 3:6,

For I am the Etrnl, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

In a newer technique, some Christians are now quoting rabbinic writings to make it seem as if the rabbis accepted this concept of vicarious atonement. However, even if several respected rabbis did agree with this idea, we must still go by what the Bible states, and the Bible states, in no uncertain terms, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.'
Who is Jebus?
 
Being purely secular and humanist,
neither religious nor spiritual,
makes it SO hard for me to understand these discussions.

To my eyes,
and I make no pretense of being omniscient,
contradicting one person's obscure scriptures
with the words from one's own obscure scriptures
is an exercise that's impossible for me to understand.

If we keep it all on an academic level
and don't use it to influence the law of the land,
I don't suppose it's very harmful.

I don't know much about the non-sematic sourced faiths,
but among Muslims, Christians, and Jews,
Jews seem the least adamant about imposing their personal beliefs
on the laws of the land. I appreciate that.
 
The Tanakh is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment.

BUT the OT does outline the sacrifice of the scapegoat to God. The story of Jesus is, in many ways, crafted to align with that sacrifice. I believe that is one of the reasons that the rending of the Temple Veil in Matthew is provided.

But Gd does not change either His mind or His nature, as we read in Malachi 3:6,

This is one of the keys to my critique of Christianity. The NT is definitely a VERY different version of God. One with the sharp edges and bloodlust removed. This makes it an attractive religion because the God being worshipped at least has a propensity to love ALL people, not just one tiny group. But we are told (and it is a real part of Christianity) that the OT is legitimate and must be accepted along with the NT as being of the same "God".

I find that theologically problematic in the extreme.

 
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