Jim Webb
- Thread starter klaatu
- Start date
I thought it was amazingly populist, also working to create an enmity between classes.
And by populist, I mean the exploitation of the misinformed emotional folk. "Those people make more money than you, you should hate them and take it."
One should be wary of misleading economic statistics often tossed around by populist politicians. A flood of low-skilled immigrants, many illegal, has had a downward influence on average wages. Increases in non-wage compensation like employer-provided health insurance or deferred compensation in the form of generous defined-benefit pension plans for government employees are frequently ignored in the wage data. Then there's the discrepancy between reported incomes and consumption, with consumption data a much better measure of living standards showing far less inequality.
Anyway, I suspected that class divisiveness would be a plan, it shows the Ds are campaigning already... using emotive populist ideas to keep power.
And by populist, I mean the exploitation of the misinformed emotional folk. "Those people make more money than you, you should hate them and take it."
One should be wary of misleading economic statistics often tossed around by populist politicians. A flood of low-skilled immigrants, many illegal, has had a downward influence on average wages. Increases in non-wage compensation like employer-provided health insurance or deferred compensation in the form of generous defined-benefit pension plans for government employees are frequently ignored in the wage data. Then there's the discrepancy between reported incomes and consumption, with consumption data a much better measure of living standards showing far less inequality.
Anyway, I suspected that class divisiveness would be a plan, it shows the Ds are campaigning already... using emotive populist ideas to keep power.
klaatu
Fusionist
Sorry.. but I must disagree ... the gap between those running the show and the rest of us peons has never been wider ... and his analogy pointing out the Teddy Roosevelt years was excellent. A great leader will stand up to the money barons .. because A great leader in this Country serves the American People not American Corporations. There is nothing pseudo populist about this.. its a fact.
Have you been paying attention to the rate of foreclosures in this country? Its getting out of hand. What is the reason for this? As American Incomes stay stagnant... and the cost of living rises as it has been... due to the cost of energy, insurance, and normal everyday living... less money is svaed ... and it results in even bigger divisions between the haves and have nots.
If Bush has it his way he wants to tax the benefits you speak of... as part of income ... he his using "voooddooo economics" ... this wil cause an even deeper division.
Have you been paying attention to the rate of foreclosures in this country? Its getting out of hand. What is the reason for this? As American Incomes stay stagnant... and the cost of living rises as it has been... due to the cost of energy, insurance, and normal everyday living... less money is svaed ... and it results in even bigger divisions between the haves and have nots.
If Bush has it his way he wants to tax the benefits you speak of... as part of income ... he his using "voooddooo economics" ... this wil cause an even deeper division.
Pointing out this while also pointing out that the top 50% of the taxpayers pay 98% of the tax bill would be a bit less populist.
There is a central view. Corporations don't need the subsidies they get, that is not free market any more than others. Coin operation of the government is a mistake.
Now a great leader doesn't work to pit one side of the nation against the other even when things are not right. That is a populist stance and is not leadership it is buttressing power on the backs of a large portion of the population.
I am not saying that Rs haven't done this, they do it consistently. Each have their devisive wedges that they drive at each opportunity that they wish to cement a stronger power base by "driving voters to the polls"...
My point is, "They are bad, bad men, because they are richer than you are." is a populist stance, in fact it is the very definition of it.
They must be bad, they'll do better than you...
klaatu
Fusionist
I understand your premise.. and to an extent I agree... but I where I disagree is the objection at raising the point to the public. I see no worng at making a public speech against Oligarchic tendencies if these tendencies are aparent which I believe is quite active in our present day Government ..and getting more serious as each year passes. Jim Webb is no raging liberal.. but I beleive he has clarity when pointing out the greed that is infecting our current situation in Washington.
I see nothing wrong with making a point, I see something wrong with drawing lines as if they are "bad" for being successful. The relative idea of poor in the US is simply not the same as it is in other nations. Seeing that a Democracy has a way of working such a separation in earnings, especially those who create subsidies for successful businesses, and pointing that out is simply truth.
However, projecting that they somehow don't pay "their fair share" of taxes when the vast majority of the bottom 50% are net tax receivers rather than payers is simply wedge issue politicking, it is designed to hit at the emotions and to solidify support by using ignorance and emotive politics.
How we spend the money is the better attack at that than projecting that these people are somehow bad for their success.
Work to teach people how to vote their shares in companies to end the overpayment of CEOs and other officers of a Corp. More than 50% of the people in the nation own stock in corporations, through 401Ks and other ways, that they do not vote their shares and work to promote earnings for the company rather than the CEO is a shameful display of ignorance. Voting a longer view for the corp and the society as a whole can also be done, but first we must teach people to excercise their rights as shareholders.
OrnotBitwise
Watermelon
And so they -- we -- should. We can afford to. Pointing out the raw numbers is often misleading.
Class warfare happens all day, every day. It's what keeps the Elite elite. Pointing that fact out is not an escalation.
I definitely do not think that I am in the top 50% but do not know for sure. I do know that I don't like the class warfare that Webb and Edwards both used in their discussions last night, the same "talking points" we have heard for quite some time. Can we do more for the poor in this country.....yes, especially as it pertains to health care. Should we do more......yes. Should we do so by demonizing the successful? Absolutely not. I am interested to see how all this plays out but me thinks it will be more of the same rhetoric from both sides with nothing getting done to help those in the middle and below.
Here, here!!
Sorry.. but I must disagree ... the gap between those running the show and the rest of us peons has never been wider ... and his analogy pointing out the Teddy Roosevelt years was excellent. A great leader will stand up to the money barons
Thank you Klatuu. You're right - the gap never has been wider since the days of the robber barons.
It's not healthy for any nation to have a huge ande massive disparity in wealth. History teaches us this.
Just like abortion kills innocent little unborn everyday, pointing that out isn't an escalation...
*sigh* You are one of the very people I spoke about, it drives that wedge it promotes the idea that they are somehow "bad". Even the name of it is clear on that point "warfare" promotes the idea that they are enemies...
History also teaches that overwhelming revolution based on this ideation can cause huge issues. Egalitarianism in France after their revolution simply debased all of their economy. You can eclipse and wound yourself by promoting the idea that they are enemies because they have what you do not.
It has been my point throughout that driving that wedge was the point of the speech and your responses make it clear that he was succesful.
Calm down Damo, and turn off the Glenn Beck show.
Nobody's talking about an egalitarian society, where everyone is equal. Where did you get that from his speech? I didn't hear it.
I think the point is that the pendulum has swung to far one way, and the middle class is under assualt in this country. I think pointing out the examples of Teddy Roosevelt, hardly makes Webb's speech seem Marxist or revolutionary.
OrnotBitwise
Watermelon
Not "bad" per se, they merely have divergent interests. What's good for the privileged classes is not necessarily good for everyone else. The difference between me and thee is that I believe that what's good for everyone else is more important.
I didn't get that from the speech, I got that from history. You promote the idea of looking to history then pretend it doesn't exist when I actually do that?
Once again, I have stated clearly pointing it out without creating the ideation of "enmity" over it is something I promote. However pointing it out in a way that projects that enmity and drives the wedge is an attempt to solidify a powerbase and is not going to create a real solution.
"They are the enemy" is not the solution.
I even gave ideas on how to create a solution, instead you promote "warfare" as a good idea. You aren't even in a sand-trap yet you use the wedge here. Emotive politicking serves only one purpose and it isn't to create a solution.