Just Watched Gettysburg

Minister of Truth

Minister of Truth

Practically Perfect
God I hate the south. They never deserved to be in Union. All we got from them was Loyalism, populism and Confederation. No classical values like republican virtue, honor, patriotism, statesmanship, etc. Just thousands of dead at Antietam, Chancellorsville and Gettysburg...
 
LOL.

I find it so amusing that you hate the south so much whenever your viewpoint so reminds me of that of those around me. You hate them because they remind you of you so much and you don't want them to.
 
Cool. Although I do occasionally find elements of me in historical figures that I loathe, like Woodrow Wilson, and that's always a downer... :(

If there was another Civil War, I'd happily return to the South to kill y'all, though. :)
 
Threedee said:
Cool. Although I do occasionally find elements of me in historical figures that I loathe, like Woodrow Wilson, and that's always a downer... :(

If there was another Civil War, I'd happily return to the South to kill y'all, though. :)
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LOL.

I'm just screwing with you. If there were another civil war, I'd move to the UK and let you guys kill each other.
 
Both make good business sense. In my case, its all the bonuses that would be offered to servicemembers for taking part in the great cause... Kind of ironic, because I believe the [first] Civil War was a waste of time - the idea of Unionism, when the principles of the Union would have been much stronger without the baggage of inferior states. But, now that all of the ideological damage has been done, I don't see how another Civil War would be all that bad of an idea...
 
So you want another civil war? Hmmm, thats pretty sad.

Although, I think you might rethink the idea.

I think this time you would lose. Plus, the loss of the south would mean the loss of a place for all the yankees to go when they retire.

But feel free to try and drum up an army to come south and try to whip us.

The Civil War, when you look past the horrors, had some phenomenal characters in it. For example, Robert E. Lee. Lee is the model for the US Military's code for being "an officer and a gentleman". He graduated from the US Military Academy with no demerits, something that has still not been equaled. He took a ragtag army that was poorly equipped, barely trained and no where near ready for major battles. With this force he directly faced the greatest military land forces of the day on 6 different occasions. He was defeated twice, both sides withdrew once, and he sent them packing three times. Until Grant was put in charge of the Union army, Lee had out maneuvered everyone Lincoln threw at him.

Oddly though, if some texans had shown some balls, the Civil War would have been over in months instead of years. Texas seceded from the Union in Feb of 1861. A small force approached an army fort and demanded that it be surrendered to the Confederacy. The General who commanded the fort was in Washington, and the Colonel he had left in charge (Lee) refused to surrender. Had these men actually attacked the fort, the Civil war would have started with Lee on the side of the Union. While it is still possible that Lee would have surrendered his commission, several historians believe he would not have done so during wartime.



Hey, I'm a history buff, what can I say.
 
The US military code includes loyalty to the Constitution - a test that Bobby Lee fails meet. I have no respect for him, as I have no respect for Benedict Arnold or Jose Padilla. Personally, I am a fan of Will Sherman. I think the South should have been told to go ahead and leave and an Amendment should have been passed forbidding future generations of Americans from allowing them back into the Union. They had nothing good to offer the Union, and today the region offers a vision little better than the New Left.

The thing is, I support what was the Northern war effort, but I buy none of the arguments it made. The CSA were a sovereign nation, and states (especially pathetic ones) ought to be allowed to secede if they want to. The argument of unionism seems a poor argument to me. Many people use might makes right as justification nowadays, and that obviously is not in line with the principles of ordered liberty and republican virtue, either.
 
I think he lived up to his oath quite admireably. He knew Virginia was going to secede from the Union, and he knew he was going to resign his commission BEFORE he did so. And yet he carried out his duty to the letter until he resigned his commission.

Once he resigned his commission and was a citizen of a foreign nation, he owed no allegience to either the Union or to the US Constitution.

So withhold your respect for him if you want, but he did not fail any test. And whether you want to admit that he was the main model for the "officer and gentleman" standards or not, it does not change the fact that he was.

I am glad the south lost. I am an american. And I am glad I was born in the USA. I am also quite fond of the south. I think its the best place to live, and I have seen many, many places.
 
Threedee said:
The US military code includes loyalty to the Constitution - a test that Bobby Lee fails meet. I have no respect for him, as I have no respect for Benedict Arnold or Jose Padilla. Personally, I am a fan of Will Sherman. I think the South should have been told to go ahead and leave and an Amendment should have been passed forbidding future generations of Americans from allowing them back into the Union. They had nothing good to offer the Union, and today the region offers a vision little better than the New Left.

The thing is, I support what was the Northern war effort, but I buy none of the arguments it made. The CSA were a sovereign nation, and states (especially pathetic ones) ought to be allowed to secede if they want to. The argument of unionism seems a poor argument to me. Many people use might makes right as justification nowadays, and that obviously is not in line with the principles of ordered liberty and republican virtue, either.
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I would feel much the same if it weren't as it is, where presence in the union saves me from the extremity of my neighbors. Think about it Three. If I lived in the CSA, I wouldn't have gone to school. I would probably be working on a farm right now.
 
Slavery would have ended regardless of the existence of the CSA. And the south would have stopped being a total farming society.

Even in the old south, the best way for a person means to make something of themselves was going to college. It would have continued to grow.

The idea that the Civil War somehow stopped the south from being locked into what it was in the 1850s ignores the fact that all nations grow and change.

But we did not stay out as the CSA. And we are part of the USA. A vital part, I might add.
 
It was the embrace of Jefferson and its refusal to industrialize that set the South up for what happened to it, so it has only itself to blame. Had the Hamilton/Washington and Adams plans been continued, the South would have been aided with subsidies, but they were dumbasses and faught against a strong economy every step of the way...

What makes me most angry about Bobby Lee is that in 1975 our morons in Congress assembled went and posthumously restored his citizenship. I hate how we honor Lee, while denouncing all of the enemy leaders from other wars, like the Confederates are special just because they were Americans. Westerners have an odd obsession with enemy generals such as Salah Udin (Saladin), Napoleon and Lee... Citizenship is not something I take lightly, as certain generals in the Civil War did.

Sorry, Watermark, but it would not be my problem if you were born into the pathetic CSA. Granted, it would have collapsed economically by 1900 anyway, so it would have been forced to change (ala the Northern reaction to the boom-bust cycle)
 
Solitary said:
Slavery would have ended regardless of the existence of the CSA. And the south would have stopped being a total farming society.

Even in the old south, the best way for a person means to make something of themselves was going to college. It would have continued to grow.

The idea that the Civil War somehow stopped the south from being locked into what it was in the 1850s ignores the fact that all nations grow and change.

But we did not stay out as the CSA. And we are part of the USA. A vital part, I might add.
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Slavery would have stopped, but a confederate form of government is economic insanity. The CSA would be a third world backwater. People would complain about education being a violation of their rights. Abortion would be banned. Mississippi alone would probably execute more people than any other nation on Earth. Segregation would still be practiced and poll taxes would still be charged.
 
I took half of what you said to be satire, so I will not discuss "barbaric" threatment of revoking citizenship...

Yes, what happens outside of the borders of the USA is not my problem in any way, shape or form, unless we caused it to happen by our foreign policy (such as involvement in Latin America). I say, fix all all of the problems caused by our policies (and Europe should do the same in Africa and the MidEast), and then stay aloof from the Globull Community. Free trade does not require a lot of political chicanery overseas. We also need to close most of our foreign bases.
 
Threedee said:
Both make good business sense. In my case, its all the bonuses that would be offered to servicemembers for taking part in the great cause... Kind of ironic, because I believe the [first] Civil War was a waste of time - the idea of Unionism, when the principles of the Union would have been much stronger without the baggage of inferior states. But, now that all of the ideological damage has been done, I don't see how another Civil War would be all that bad of an idea...
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The first battle has already been lost. The Bush/neocon/Religio nuts battle.
 
So, you think a less religious society would be better. That is one of the principle reasons why I don't have it in me to be a neoliberal. And I'm not fond of evangelicalism (though protestantism in general is out, of course), so I could never be a neocon either...

My friend Sean told me that I was like John Adams (whom I was writing a thesis on), because I have been left stranded without a party. I replied, "well, if that's true, than in 200 years some kid can write a thesis about me."
 
LOL the odds are well against me being remembered by history (some students will remember me, but that obviously is not the point) :)

Watermark, don't you think its appropriate to strip a man like Bobby Lee of citizenship when he joins the general staff of an enemy nation and fights against yours? I can understand the tyranny behind deporting a dissenter or malcontent, but then we usually give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they mean to harm to the general public, anyway...

I mean, hell, you know how there's honorary doctorates, right? Why not grant posthumous honorary citizenship to Hitler, Stalin and whomever your most recent ancestor was that did not become a US citizen?
 
Threedee said:
LOL the odds are well against me being remembered by history (some students will remember me, but that obviously is not the point) :)

Watermark, don't you think its appropriate to strip a man like Bobby Lee of citizenship when he joins the general staff of an enemy nation and fights against yours? I can understand the tyranny behind deporting a dissenter or malcontent, but then we usually give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they mean to harm to the general public, anyway...

I mean, hell, you know how there's honorary doctorates, right? Why not grant posthumous honorary citizenship to Hitler, Stalin and whomever your most recent ancestor was that did not become a US citizen?
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Shit, who even cares Three. I'm blowing this way out of proportion. Why must you take me seriously whenever I'm just being a blowhard? The way you phrase your condemnations, Three, just happens to make people born in the south automatically angry. We have subconscious cues we can't avoid. I was always taught that Lee was a very respectable man who was just doing what he had to do. Did they teach something different in your schools?

But the citizenship was not "honorary citizenship", it was just completing the process that Andrew Johnson gave to restore citizenship.

If it makes you happy, I think it was a ridiculously bad idea to allow the southern states to make new constitutions, which usually were made for the sole purpose of re-enfranchising former confederates and making it nearly impossible for a black person to vote.
 
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