APP - Latest Odds of a Shooting War Between Nato and Russia.

montgomery

Verified User
https://consortiumnews.com/2018/12/13/latest-odds-of-a-shooting-war-between-nato-and-russia/

Over the Kerch strait standoff of course and it apparently stands at 70%!

Gee, is that also the odds for nuclear war if the US decides to push Russia on that disagreement between Russia and the Ukraine?

Not suggesting that nuclear was should be something that causes Americans from enjoying Xmas!

Comments?

George Szamuely: Several weeks ago, when we first talked about this, I said 60 percent. Now I’d say, maybe 70 percent. The problem is that Trump seems determined to be the anti-Obama. Obama, in Trump’s telling, “allowed” Russia to take Crimea and to “invade” Ukraine. Therefore, it will be up to Trump to reverse this. Just as he, Trump, reversed Obama’s policy on Iran by walking away from the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, otherwise known as the Iran nuclear deal. So expect ever-increasing US involvement in Ukraine.

How nice! Nuclear war could be about as far away as the challenge of the FBI/Mueller taking down Trump's family
 
If we put NATO in the Black Sea or between Ukraine and Russia then it's a recipe for bad things like shooting wars
 
Obama, in Trump’s telling, “allowed” Russia to take Crimea and to “invade” Ukraine.
Therefore, it will be up to Trump to reverse this. Just as he, Trump, reversed Obama’s policy on Iran by walking away from the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, otherwise known as the Iran nuclear deal. So expect ever-increasing US involvement in Ukraine.
bad analysis.. taking back Crimea is impossible without all out war.
Russia consider Crimea their historical territory.
So expect ever-increasing US involvement in Ukraine.
but this much is possible -Meddling in Uk/Russian affairs
~~

Trump was at one time looking for better Russian relations.
That's part of why Flynn was talking to Kislyak during the transition...

Long story short the Deep State -the most Russiaphobic folks in government were hysterical
at changing Russian relations away from a zero sum game to cooperation..

and here we needlessly are. Welcome to Cold War 2.0. Pay the exorbitant costs to play. Nobody wins.
 
bad analysis.. taking back Crimea is impossible without all out war.
Russia consider Crimea their historical territory.

but this much is possible -Meddling in Uk/Russian affairs
~~

Trump was at one time looking for better Russian relations.
That's part of why Flynn was talking to Kislyak during the transition...

Long story short the Deep State -the most Russiaphobic folks in government were hysterical
at changing Russian relations away from a zero sum game to cooperation..

and here we needlessly are. Welcome to Cold War 2.0. Pay the exorbitant costs to play. Nobody wins.

I have to commend you for your firm grasp on international politics! But I have a slightly different perspective which I would like to run past you:

I don't see any indication of Trump wanting better relations with Russia. I consider that to be mostly the Democratic party's spin on the situation. And in order to analyze this idea thoroughly we would have to go back on comments made by Trump, then reversed and made meaningless. My explanation for what Trump has done to make it appear that he wants better relations is that it was all strictly self-preservation. Maybe the proof of the pudding is that relations between Russia and the US are as bad now as they were during the Soviet era. And that's a very good reason why the Mueller/FBI actions to eliminate Trump must be concluded sooner rather than later.

I think that Trump is likely incapable of any deep thought and so that's why Trump should be left out of the equation. But as to your comments on the 'deep state', or US policy in general, I feel your suggestion is right on.

One of the others on this forum (name?) has been incapable of understanding the situation that exists between the US and Russia. He/she believes that Russia is nothing more than a geo-political threat to the US and that Russia can not be any economic competitor, as implied a threat. I firmly maintain that all large powerful nations consider the others to be an economic threat in this global economy to each other. That which the US, Russia, China, India, and other rising powers are able to bring into their own spheres of influence, are obviously denied in a big way to the others.

On the Crimea question? There's no doubt that Russia was faced with a developing situation that couldn't be ignored on complete and total friendly access to the Crimea. The status quo was working well enough and Russia was content with it. But that had to be interfered with and hence the current situation. Russia can't and won't back off from their position for reasons you likely understand very well.

I'll leave it at that for now for your consideration.
 
I have to commend you for your firm grasp on international politics! But I have a slightly different perspective which I would like to run past you:

I don't see any indication of Trump wanting better relations with Russia. I consider that to be mostly the Democratic party's spin on the situation. And in order to analyze this idea thoroughly we would have to go back on comments made by Trump, then reversed and made meaningless. My explanation for what Trump has done to make it appear that he wants better relations is that it was all strictly self-preservation. Maybe the proof of the pudding is that relations between Russia and the US are as bad now as they were during the Soviet era. And that's a very good reason why the Mueller/FBI actions to eliminate Trump must be concluded sooner rather than later.

I think that Trump is likely incapable of any deep thought and so that's why Trump should be left out of the equation. But as to your comments on the 'deep state', or US policy in general, I feel your suggestion is right on.

One of the others on this forum (name?) has been incapable of understanding the situation that exists between the US and Russia. He/she believes that Russia is nothing more than a geo-political threat to the US and that Russia can not be any economic competitor, as implied a threat. I firmly maintain that all large powerful nations consider the others to be an economic threat in this global economy to each other. That which the US, Russia, China, India, and other rising powers are able to bring into their own spheres of influence, are obviously denied in a big way to the others.

On the Crimea question? There's no doubt that Russia was faced with a developing situation that couldn't be ignored on complete and total friendly access to the Crimea. The status quo was working well enough and Russia was content with it. But that had to be interfered with and hence the current situation. Russia can't and won't back off from their position for reasons you likely understand very well.

I'll leave it at that for now for your consideration.
Crimea annexation was caused by threatening Russia's access to Sevatopol naval base.

Our meddling in the Euromaidan was a major reason for all that - long atory and I'm pressed for time.

Trump campaigned on improved relations, that all went to hell wit the FBI investigation ,special prosecutor etc.
I'll flesh it out more, but i gotta run
 
American-Russian relations are characterized by irreconcilable contradictions and the aloofness of history. The American official position is that Crimea-related sanctions will remain in place until Russia returns control of the peninsula to Ukraine.
Moscow's position is that Crimea has been "returned" – back to Russia.

The Crimea and Eastern Ukrainian conflicts are two of many ethnic conflicts that have become common in the post-Cold War period.
In many countries arbitrarily created after the Second World War the unifying principle was the power of the state that forced citizens to tolerate a plethora of incompatibilities.
Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, and Ukraine are prime products of this geopolitical engineering.

The collapse of the Soviet Union and the subsequent demise of the so-called "socialist camp" resulted in weakening or overthrowing the authoritarian regimes. The absence of enforcement gave rise to nationalistic aspirations that challenge the cohesiveness of the established order, in some instances, to the point of no order at all.

Modern Ukraine is an agglomeration of the territories of the original Ukrainian People's Republic created after the disintegration of the Russian Empire in 1917 and the neighboring countries with some historical and cultural links to Ukraine, and Novo-Russia, or Eastern Ukraine.
The most recent addition was Crimea, which Nikita Khrushchev, with proletarian generosity and in violation of the Soviet Constitution, transferred to Ukraine.


After the collapse of the USSR, the Russian population of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine found itself trapped under Ukrainian rule. Pro-Russian sentiments – ranging from the recognition of the official status of the Russian language to outright secession – have always been prevalent in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine and are the roots of the current conflict.

The United States has to synthesize the complex legacies and develop a strategic view of the process it so imprudently got involved in. If Crimea is a fait accompli, Eastern Ukraine offers some interesting dynamics.

Usually, in conflicts, each side is pursuing an outcome incompatible with the strategic ambition of its adversary. In this case, however, neither Petro Poroshenko nor Vladimir Putin wants Eastern Ukraine.
Putin could occupy Eastern Ukraine within 48 hours and face no resistance.
Poroshenko could accept a limited autonomy for the belligerent East, which it demanded from the outset, and avoid a bloody conflict altogether.

But the rulers in Kiev are not motivated by "one country, one destiny"; they are not motivated by concern for the stability and integrity of Ukraine.
Rather, they are moved by billions in financial aid.
Defeated by superior force, they want the E.U. to adopt them and make Ukraine a black hole for billions of dollars and euros, with no end in sight.

The fact is that despite international support, Kiev lacks the means to preserve Ukraine as a unitary state. Therefore, Poroshenko's survival is predicated on defeat.

Just as in the case of the Palestinians, whose every defeat functions as a catalyst to attract worldwide sympathy and international donors, the continuation of hostilities, for Poroshenko, is an inevitable necessity.
This should explain indiscriminate bombing of East Ukrainian cities and a recent border incident between Russian and Ukrainian forces.

Putin's predicament is that although two million Eastern Ukrainians have already voted against Kiev with their feet, seeking refuge in Russia, unlike predominantly Russian Crimea, which voted overwhelmingly to join Russia,
the binational population of Eastern Ukraine is hesitant to replace the Ukrainian mess with the uncertainty of joining the Russians' bedlam.
The prospects of having their sons drafted into the Russian army do not appeal to them, either.
Furthermore, heavily industrialized Eastern Ukraine can survive and prosper on its own.


Within this context, if the West accepts Crimea as part of Russia and recognizes the independence of Eastern Ukraine, paradoxically, all sides will achieve their respective objectives.
The populations of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine will acquire national identity; the United States and Russia could resume non-adversarial relations;
Western Ukraine becomes an orphan of Europe; Poroshenko and his cronies, who provoked the conflict by declaring their intent to join the E.U. and NATO, get their payoff; and the E.U. adopts a much smaller country.


Woodrow Wilson would have no difficulty endorsing this approach.
Wilsonian principles of national self-determination should apply to Crimea and Eastern Ukraine just as they were applied to Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Scotland, the Falkland Islands, and Cyprus.
So the central question is, why do we even care if there are two Ukraines – or even three or four?

Dealing with absolutes, those who promulgate adversarial relations with Russia have lost their grip on reality and are driven by hatred rather than American national interests.
The Russians see the acquisition of Crimea as a geopolitical issue paramount to their security as well as a fulfillment of nationalistic aspirations and are ready for sacrifices way beyond the West's comprehension.
In this manner, the outcome of the sanctions is preordained; even if sanctions are kept in place for the next hundred years, they will not weaken Russian's resolve.


If a strategy does not accomplish its stated objectives, a reasonable observer may conclude that the strategy has failed. It is the time to distinguish between the desirable and the achievable.

Alexander G. Markovsky is a senior fellow at the London Center for Policy Research, a conservative think-tank hosted at King's College, New York City,
https://www.americanthinker.com/art...kraine_the_desirable_over_the_achievable.html
...
 
Crimea annexation was caused by threatening Russia's access to Sevatopol naval base.

Our meddling in the Euromaidan was a major reason for all that - long atory and I'm pressed for time.

Trump campaigned on improved relations, that all went to hell wit the FBI investigation ,special prosecutor etc.
I'll flesh it out more, but i gotta run

Sure! I know all about the reason why Russia was forced to react, allow the people a referendum, and then be able to peacefully claim the Crimea. You and I have no need to sweat the small stuff.

As to improved relations by Trump's efforts? Nothing more than self-preservation that was sold by the Democrat as Trump's love for Puin, or whatever? Trump is far below that level of thinking.

Americans of all stripes quickly and easily buy into the Russia/Putin hate because they're impulsive and ignorant people who are easily played by the government that sees gain in alienating Russia and waging a 'cold' war against Russia. It's no more than global competition that's been mostly the property of the US. But now the other big powers are stepping up to put the lid on US power. When you get the opportunity, let's talk!
 
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