Libertarian Definitions Handbook....

C

Cypress

Well-known member
I hear several words from Libertarians/Ron Paul supporters that I don’t think I’ve heard since college. Words that do have historical context, but aren’t typically used by traditional Political Scientists/Historians to describe the system of American governance or American liberalism. But, frankly, words that appear to be used by Libertarians in a pejorative sense, to describe American liberalism--- Words that may have broadly defined dictionary definitions if one Wikis them – but, exactly how to they apply to American liberalism? Specifically, “collectivism” and “statism”. Oddly, these words are cherished also by extreme rightwingers (Asshatzombie, and other Stormfront-type posters).

I’d be interested in a more precise definition of these words, and how they actually apply in the real world to American liberalism:



*Collectivism: Prior to posting on message boards, I think the last time I heard this word used, was in college Russian and Chinese history classes. Specifically, pertaining to Stalin’s disastrous agricultural policies and the policy of state-managed production and manufacturing. Also, to elements of Mao’s Cultural Revolution. I never hear traditional American political scientists and historians use it with respect to the American economic and political system. What exactly does it mean, with respect to American liberalism? Are the New Deal and Great Society reforms actually collectivism? Is Medicaid, collectivism? And if so, do you advocate repealing the reforms of the Great Society and New Deal?

*Statism: Outside the academic realm of studies into Soviet, Chinese history, this is another term that I’m not sure I’ve ever heard traditional political scientists apply to American liberalism. Is the New Deal statist? Is social security statist?

*”Big Government”: what exactly IS big government? As far as I know, the United States spends a lower percentage of its GDP on public services than any other developed nation on the planet. Remove our spending on the military/industrial complex, and I’m pretty sure our spending of public infrastructure and welfare, is dwarfed by other developed nations. In short, is there a way to quantify what you mean by “big government”…is there a certain “cut off” or percentage of GDP spending devoted to the public sector, which would be the difference between “big government” and “small government”


Thanks.
 
Cypress said:
I hear several words from Libertarians/Ron Paul supporters that I don’t think I’ve heard since college. Words that do have historical context, but aren’t typically used by traditional Political Scientists/Historians to describe the system of American governance or American liberalism. But, frankly, words that appear to be used by Libertarians in a pejorative sense, to describe American liberalism--- Words that may have broadly defined dictionary definitions if one Wikis them – but, exactly how to they apply to American liberalism? Specifically, “collectivism” and “statism”. Oddly, these words are cherished also by extreme rightwingers (Asshatzombie, and other Stormfront-type posters).

I’d be interested in a more precise definition of these words, and how they actually apply in the real world to American liberalism:



*Collectivism: Prior to posting on message boards, I think the last time I heard this word used, was in college Russian and Chinese history classes. Specifically, pertaining to Stalin’s disastrous agricultural policies and the policy of state-managed production and manufacturing. Also, to elements of Mao’s Cultural Revolution. I never hear traditional American political scientists and historians use it with respect to the American economic and political system. What exactly does it mean, with respect to American liberalism? Are the New Deal and Great Society reforms actually collectivism? Is Medicaid, collectivism? And if so, do you advocate repealing the reforms of the Great Society and New Deal?

*Statism: Outside the academic realm of studies into Soviet, Chinese history, this is another term that I’m not sure I’ve ever heard traditional political scientists apply to American liberalism. Is the New Deal statist? Is social security statist?

*”Big Government”: what exactly IS big government? As far as I know, the United States spends a lower percentage of its GDP on public services than any other developed nation on the planet. Remove our spending on the military/industrial complex, and I’m pretty sure our spending of public infrastructure and welfare, is dwarfed by other developed nations. In short, is there a way to quantify what you mean by “big government”…is there a certain “cut off” or percentage of GDP spending devoted to the public sector, which would be the difference between “big government” and “small government”


Thanks.
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You only have to go back to 1996 and Bill Clinton "the days of Big Government are over". Maybe a Clinton backer can tell us what he meant?
 
cawacko said:
You only have to go back to 1996 and Bill Clinton "the days of Big Government are over". Maybe a Clinton backer can tell us what he meant?
Click to expand...

That's why the whole "big government", "collectivist" rhetoric in so unfullfilling.

In clinton's case, his policies and actions pretty much answer your question. He obviously was in favor of keeping in place much the traditional transformational reforms of the New Deal and Great Society. He didn't favor rolling them back or dismantling them. He claimed to believe in more effective and cost efficient government, and he tinkered at the margins with some deregulation and welfare reform. But, he was loudly and proudly a proponent of the best of the New Deal and Great Society.
 
Collectivism and statism don't apply to liberalism. They are the opposite of it.

Stormfronters and any other racist is a collectivist. Anybody that treats a person as a member of a group rather than an individual is clearly a collectivist. As Rand put it, racists are simply barnyard collectivists.
 
Anybody that treats a person as a member of a group rather than an individual is clearly a collectivist.

your statement RS.
 
The best aspects of our nation come from the founders individualist principles. You guys are incredibly ignorant about the history of thought and the enlightenment ideals that created this nation.
 
uscitizen said:
Anybody that treats a person as a member of a group rather than an individual is clearly a collectivist.

your statement RS.
Click to expand...

Yes, if you define a person by his group status rather than as an individual then you are a collectivist. Your other statement is non sequitur.
 
so governments , religions and such treat people as individuals ?

The constitution that our founding fathers wrote treats people as individuals ?
 
uscitizen said:
And these founding individualists treated people as groups.

Strange huh ?
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No. Read the D of I, the Consitution or any of their other writings. They were individualist. They did error in certain ways but those individualist principles corrected the major errors.
 
Okay, I see I'm going to have to do this myself, since people are prone to inventing their own definitions, to be consistent with their own internal partisan politics.



Merriam Webster Dictionary

Defintion: Collectivisn
Main Entry:


1: a political or economic theory advocating collective control especially over production and distribution;
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Collective (e.g., State control) over production and distribution.

In other words, Stalinism, Communism, or full blown Socialism.


In short, when Democrats or american liberals are called collectivists, its all partisan bullsit.
 
Cypress said:
Okay, I see I'm going to have to do this myself, since people are prone to inventing their own definitions, to be consistent with their own internal partisan politics.






Collective (e.g., State control) over production and distribution.

In other words, Stalinism, Communism, or full blown Socialism.


In short, when Democrats or american liberals are called collectivists, its all partisan bullsit.
Click to expand...
Any other definitions? What will I find when I look it up there, Cypress?
 
Wow. Nope, that's all the dictionary has. Weak. Rand spoke and defined "collectivism" in libertarian lexicon. It doesn't have that meaning. RStrings gave the definition that she used.
 
Here is exactly as it was defined by Rand...

Collectivism means the subjugation of the individual to a group — whether to a race, class or state does not matter. Collectivism holds that man must be chained to collective action and collective thought for the sake of what is called ``the common good.´´
Click to expand...

From: The Only Path To Tomorrow
 
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