No evidence White House involved in ‘Fast and Furious’

Again, I will simply refer you to this entire thread.

So you admit to being a liar? Fine. We all can see just how pathetic you have become. You are a cowardly piece of shit and a liar. You run away from backing up your baseless accusations and you lie consistently about others positions. It must truly suck to be as pathetic as you. I pity you.
 
The ATF took an active role in the illegal sale of arms to smugglers. They are participating in the crime in that they arranged for the smugglers to bypass security background checks. Without the active participation of the ATF, they would not have had the guns that killed Agent Terry and a couple hundred (so far) innocent Mexican civilians.

They allowed gun runners to purchase weapons that they otherwise would not have been able to purchase. I don't consider that active participation in anything.
 
So you admit to being a liar? Fine. We all can see just how pathetic you have become. You are a cowardly piece of shit and a liar. You run away from backing up your baseless accusations and you lie consistently about others positions. It must truly suck to be as pathetic as you. I pity you.

Actually I admit I was kinda playing with you. You never said the things I accused you of saying. I just did to you what Damocles has done to me in the Double Mormon Ticket thread... Go look at it. Your reaction was much more angery than mine was and I feel more confident that Damocles is acting pittafull, just as you accused me of acting!
 
Actually I admit I was kinda playing with you. You never said the things I accused you of saying. I just did to you what Damocles has done to me in the Double Mormon Ticket thread... Go look at it. Your reaction was much more angery than mine was and I feel more confident that Damocles is acting pittafull, just as you accused me of acting!

So you were a liar. As I stated. You are a pathetic twit.
 
Not really. They didn't arrange for shit. They simply didn't stop gun runners from purchasing large numbers of guns and didn't stop gun dealers from selling to them.

They told dealers to go through with illegal sales to people who were not allowed to own firearms, in some cases paying for them, and in every case letting them cross the border illegally, knowing they would go to criminal organizations, without any percievable good effect.
 
They allowed gun runners to purchase weapons that they otherwise would not have been able to purchase. I don't consider that active participation in anything.

Telling a shop/seller to committ and illegal act or face punishment is definately an illega act. PAYING for criminals to break the law, and then telling dealers to let it happen or lose their livelyhood (their FFL) is something more akin to a mafia family, not a supposed law enforcement group.
 
Telling a shop/seller to committ and illegal act or face punishment is definately an illega act. PAYING for criminals to break the law, and then telling dealers to let it happen or lose their livelyhood (their FFL) is something more akin to a mafia family, not a supposed law enforcement group.

I haven't seen anything to substantiate the claims that the ATF threatened dealers with punishment if they didn't sell or that the ATF paid gun runners. Source your claims. All I have seen is the ATF assuring gun dealers that they wouldn't face prosecution for engaging in otherwise illegal deals and that the ATF would look kindly on them for helping out by doing the sales. I don't think that is illegal.
 
I haven't seen anything to substantiate the claims that the ATF threatened dealers with punishment if they didn't sell or that the ATF paid gun runners. Source your claims. All I have seen is the ATF assuring gun dealers that they wouldn't face prosecution for engaging in otherwise illegal deals and that the ATF would look kindly on them for helping out by doing the sales. I don't think that is illegal.

God damnit I really don't want to go digging through a years worth of reading here.....

I'll source it this weekend.
 
God damnit I really don't want to go digging through a years worth of reading here.....

I'll source it this weekend.


I certainly believe that you read it. I just don't know that what you read is true. But, quite frankly, I don't really give a shit about the whole thing so I don't want you to take the time to source it if it's a pain in the ass.
 
The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust.

FORTUNE -- In the annals of impossible assignments, Dave Voth's ranked high. In 2009 the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives promoted Voth to lead Phoenix Group VII, one of seven new ATF groups along the Southwest border tasked with stopping guns from being trafficked into Mexico's vicious drug war.

Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

Voth, 39, was a good choice for a Sisyphean task. Strapping and sandy-haired, the former Marine is cool-headed and punctilious to a fault. In 2009 the ATF named him outstanding law-enforcement employee of the year for dismantling two violent street gangs in Minneapolis. He was the "hardest working federal agent I've come across," says John Biederman, a sergeant with the Minneapolis Police Department. But as Voth left to become the group supervisor of Phoenix Group VII, a friend warned him: "You're destined to fail."

Voth's mandate was to stop gun traffickers in Arizona, the state ranked by the gun-control advocacy group Legal Community Against Violence as having the nation's "weakest gun violence prevention laws." Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.

Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.

[Read the rest - link in the title]
 
Another rabid rightie conspiracy theory shot to hell. :)

"There is no evidence that White House officials were involved in withholding information related to a congressional inquiry into the botched gun-trafficking operation known as Operation “Fast and Furious,” the Republican lawmaker leading the investigation said Sunday.

Several Republican lawmakers, including House Speaker John A. Boehner (R-Ohio), charged last week that President Obama’s decision to invoke executive privilege over documents related to the probe suggested that top administration officials were involved in withholding information.

“The decision to invoke executive privilege is an admission that White House officials were involved in decision that misled the Congress and have covered up the truth,” Boehner told reporters last week.

But asked Sunday whether he had any evidence to back up those claims, Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) said “No we don’t.”


Fast_and_Furious-02232.jpg


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...t-and-furious/2012/06/24/gJQAhs1kzV_blog.html
If the president has nothing to hide.....
 
The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust.

FORTUNE -- In the annals of impossible assignments, Dave Voth's ranked high. In 2009 the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives promoted Voth to lead Phoenix Group VII, one of seven new ATF groups along the Southwest border tasked with stopping guns from being trafficked into Mexico's vicious drug war.

Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

Voth, 39, was a good choice for a Sisyphean task. Strapping and sandy-haired, the former Marine is cool-headed and punctilious to a fault. In 2009 the ATF named him outstanding law-enforcement employee of the year for dismantling two violent street gangs in Minneapolis. He was the "hardest working federal agent I've come across," says John Biederman, a sergeant with the Minneapolis Police Department. But as Voth left to become the group supervisor of Phoenix Group VII, a friend warned him: "You're destined to fail."

Voth's mandate was to stop gun traffickers in Arizona, the state ranked by the gun-control advocacy group Legal Community Against Violence as having the nation's "weakest gun violence prevention laws." Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.

Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.

[Read the rest - link in the title]

Oh my fucking god....I'll deal with this later. Dear god....
 
The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust.

FORTUNE -- In the annals of impossible assignments, Dave Voth's ranked high. In 2009 the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives promoted Voth to lead Phoenix Group VII, one of seven new ATF groups along the Southwest border tasked with stopping guns from being trafficked into Mexico's vicious drug war.

Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

Voth, 39, was a good choice for a Sisyphean task. Strapping and sandy-haired, the former Marine is cool-headed and punctilious to a fault. In 2009 the ATF named him outstanding law-enforcement employee of the year for dismantling two violent street gangs in Minneapolis. He was the "hardest working federal agent I've come across," says John Biederman, a sergeant with the Minneapolis Police Department. But as Voth left to become the group supervisor of Phoenix Group VII, a friend warned him: "You're destined to fail."

Voth's mandate was to stop gun traffickers in Arizona, the state ranked by the gun-control advocacy group Legal Community Against Violence as having the nation's "weakest gun violence prevention laws." Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.

Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.

[Read the rest - link in the title]
can you follow all that BIJOU? It's so complex at a read. I'm sure Issa has political motives, but I also question the use of EP by POTUS -surely he had to know it would escalate this to Front Page news.

Anyways, from my understanding with the contempt vote coming ( or already passed), and the use of EP -where does this go?
Doe it go to the courts for a decision? Effectively political limbo? Or will we ever figure it out/ honestly i try to maintain political neutrality, but it's perplexing.
Maybe my mind just can't follow it all - i tried to read the article...got lost in the details.
 
can you follow all that BIJOU? It's so complex at a read. I'm sure Issa has political motives, but I also question the use of EP by POTUS -surely he had to know it would escalate this to Front Page news.

Anyways, from my understanding with the contempt vote coming ( or already passed), and the use of EP -where does this go?
Doe it go to the courts for a decision? Effectively political limbo? Or will we ever figure it out/ honestly i try to maintain political neutrality, but it's perplexing.
Maybe my mind just can't follow it all - i tried to read the article...got lost in the details.

You have to read the whole article. Yes, it's hard. And the devil is in the details.
 
You have to read the whole article. Yes, it's hard. And the devil is in the details.
I tried. i can't follow it, or just lack the desire to dissect it. But thank for the posting, shows indeed there is always more below than what is on the surface :)
 
I tried. i can't follow it, or just lack the desire to dissect it. But thank for the posting, shows indeed there is always more below than what is on the surface :)

I'll give some time to those who are reading it...then I will c/p the salient points. ;)
 
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