On How Religion Cheapens Life

[AnyOldIron]

It is often commented on that atheists claim that if religion was eliminated that peace would ensue. Few atheists claim this, but there is truth in it, although not in the obvious sense.

If religion was eliminated, wars would still exist, based on other factors such as greed etc.

But it is the belief in the afterlife, and the belief in an innate meaning to existence provided by a god that allow this.

When you accept that existence has no innate meaning, that meaning is a human creation, the dynamic of how you see life and existence changes. You realise that as a human creation, meaning is only found in other humans, that they are the source of your meaning. It makes it incredibly hard to rationally justify killing your sources of meaning, which makes war, for example, extremely hard to justify.

When you believe in 'justice in the afterlife', or even that existence exists beyond the short glimpse we experience, you cheapen that short glimpse.

It is not that religion causes war, though it does, it is the perspective it gives to life, the cheapening effect it has, that makes war far easier than it should be.

 

[Cancel7]

This is very interesting, and there is plenty of truth in it. But, it does not factor in creatures such as Dick Cheney, who, I do not believe for one minute believes in any afterlife or God or anything, and killing doesn't bother him.

 

[uscitizen]

The Christian religion is largely based on war.

 

[AnyOldIron]

This is very interesting, and there is plenty of truth in it. But, it does not factor in creatures such as Dick Cheney, who, I do not believe for one minute believes in any afterlife or God or anything, and killing doesn't bother him.

True, but he can hide behind the mask of current popular idea that an afterlife exists.

If it were common knowledge that this existence was all we had, and that we can only derive meaning from our fellow man, it would be hard to generate that concensus needed to go to war.

 

[AnyOldIron]

The Christian religion is largely based on war.

They are all much of a muchness. Christianity seems to be the main problem because that is the environment in which you exist in the US. If you, through a 'freak of fate' had happened to be born in Egypt then it would be Islam.

But this goes further than just religion to the core of the belief in the transcendental, to all beliefs in an afterlife, or innate meaning. Even apparently innocent beliefs, such as that of new age wicca contribute to this cheapening....

 

[uscitizen]

It is fine to kill all non christians, has always been that way for the Christians.
As a religion now, not all Christians are this way just most.

 

[uscitizen]

The Christian religion is largely based on war.

They are all much of a muchness. Christianity seems to be the main problem because that is the environment in which you exist in the US. If you, through a 'freak of fate' had happened to be born in Egypt then it would be Islam.

But this goes further than just religion to the core of the belief in the transcendental, to all beliefs in an afterlife, or innate meaning. Even apparently innocent beliefs, such as that of new age wicca contribute to this cheapening....

Right each religion is the only correct religion

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Not all religious traditions suffer from this defect to the same degree, however. Christianity picked up a particularly strong dose from the thinking of Plato, Aristotle and the Pythagoreans.

If this world of the senses is not the "real" world, if this life is somehow less important than what comes after, then almost any form of barbaric mistreatment of others can be justified.

 

[uscitizen]

Good points Ornot. If this part is so insignificant then why are preachers so afraid of dying if the next world is going to be so glorious ?

 

[Damocles]

Good points Ornot. If this part is so insignificant then why are preachers so afraid of dying if the next world is going to be so glorious ?

Which preachers are afraid of dying? Certainly the one I grew up with isn't afraid of it. At least by all evidence that I have he isn't.

Why, at the point of death do so many call on what they do not believe?

 

[Lao Tse]

Not all religious traditions suffer from this defect to the same degree, however. Christianity picked up a particularly strong dose from the thinking of Plato, Aristotle and the Pythagoreans.

If this world of the senses is not the "real" world, if this life is somehow less important than what comes after, then almost any form of barbaric mistreatment of others can be justified.

Actually, it's the nihilists who question the innate value of life, and their justification of barbarity by explaining it as "part of evolution and therefore inevitable", who devalue life and justify barbarity.

 

[Damocles]

Actually, it's the nihilists who question the innate value of life, and their justification of barbarity by explaining it as "part of evolution and therefore inevitable", who devalue life and justify barbarity.

Well, there had to be a reason that he became a serial killer. Once we find out that we can understand that he wasn't evil...

Evil is in the result, regardless of the motive. To say that an action isn't evil because we understand a motive and thus compassionate the misery in their mind is dismissive of the result of the action. Why a person does something terrible does not negate the act itself.

Humans have justified barbarity in the name of religion, regardless of which religion they follow. The belief in an afterlife, and quick passage to it was used by both sides in the Crusades, there were very few nihilists indeed fighting in those particular battles. Hitler too used an abused form of religion in his outrage against humanity, it wasn't a "nihilist" ideal that brought that one to us.

Now as for the nihilists... Stalin, Mao, Lenin... All of these were nihilists, placing value without belief of instrinsic value. They too committed atrocities in the name of nihilism. One only has to look into history to find that humans can find reason for atrocities in religion as well as in nihilism. It seems to be the nature of humans to be constantly battling those who would deem their values so superior that they must thrust them on others by force.

 

[Lao Tse]

Well, there had to be a reason that he became a serial killer. Once we find out that we can understand that he wasn't evil...

Evil is in the result, regardless of the motive. To say that an action isn't evil because we understand a motive and thus compassionate the misery in their mind is dismissive of the result of the action. Why a person does something terrible does not negate the act itself.

Humans have justified barbarity in the name of religion, regardless of which religion they follow. The belief in an afterlife, and quick passage to it was used by both sides in the Crusades, there were very few nihilists indeed fighting in those particular battles. Hitler too used an abused form of religion in his outrage against humanity, it wasn't a "nihilist" ideal that brought that one to us.

Now as for the nihilists... Stalin, Mao, Lenin... All of these were nihilists, placing value without belief of instrinsic value. They too committed atrocities in the name of nihilism. One only has to look into history to find that humans can find reason for atrocities in religion as well as in nihilism. It seems to be the nature of humans to be constantly battling those who would deem their values so superior that they must thrust them on others by force.

you want a gold star?

 

[uscitizen]

Which preachers are afraid of dying? Certainly the one I grew up with isn't afraid of it. At least by all evidence that I have he isn't.

Why, at the point of death do so many call on what they do not believe?

The one at the local church here, and more I have seen.

Which evangelo nut was going to kill himself if he did not raise enough money a few years ago ? Went up in his tower and such...
Why would any christian donate money to keep him from going to heaven ?

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Actually, it's the nihilists who question the innate value of life, and their justification of barbarity by explaining it as "part of evolution and therefore inevitable", who devalue life and justify barbarity.

I did not say that it was the only way in which barbarism could be justified, merely that it was an easy way.

Slavery, exploitation and murder? Why, that's doing God's work by converting the heathens.

The point is that Christianity has inherited a rather poisonous intellectual tradition from the Greeks. Not all Christians fall victim to it -- the Jesuits seem quite resilient, for example -- but it is very much there. This is the tendency to think of the material world of the senses as being somehow corrupt and less important than some higher reality. The minute you allow yourself to fall into that mode of thinking then almost any degredation or suffering can be passed off as of little significance.

Note that I say it can be, not that it always will or must be. Still, it happens so commonly that I'd call it a major flaw in the mind set.

It's been said that the reason the Pythagoreans and their intellectual brethren triumphed in Greece -- as opposed to Democritus and the other early materialists -- is because their philosophy did not require Helenic society to re-examine slavery or social stratification. I think that's pretty much bang on.

 

[Lao Tse]

I did not say that it was the only way in which barbarism could be justified, merely that it was an easy way.

Militating against religion is another easy way.

Slavery, exploitation and murder? Why, that's doing God's work by converting the heathens.

The point is that Christianity has inherited a rather poisonous intellectual tradition from the Greeks. Not all Christians fall victim to it -- the Jesuits seem quite resilient, for example -- but it is very much there. This is the tendency to think of the material world of the senses as being somehow corrupt and less important than some higher reality. The minute you allow yourself to fall into that mode of thinking then almost any degredation or suffering can be passed off as of little significance.

Actually, complete materialism also justifies any degradation or suffering, as it's all passed off as a means to an end.

Note that I say it can be, not that it always will or must be. Still, it happens so commonly that I'd call it a major flaw in the mind set.

It's been said that the reason the Pythagoreans and their intellectual brethren triumphed in Greece -- as opposed to Democritus and the other early materialists -- is because their philosophy did not require Helenic society to re-examine slavery or social stratification. I think that's pretty much bang on.

Does your statist, nihilist, elitism require you to examine slavery and social stratification?

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Militating against religion is another easy way.

Actually, complete materialism also justifies any degradation or suffering, as it's all passed off as a means to an end.


Does your statist, nihilist, elitism require you to examine slavery and social stratification?

Was that the grape flavored Kool-Aid? I always liked the grape.

Your obsession with applying labels to every idea you don't like is pretty amusing. With all those "-ists" and "-isms" I'll bet you wear out the I and S keys really quickly.

Yes, materialism does indeed force one to reexamine the concepts of slavery and social stratification . . . provided one has a modicum of intellectual honesty and, ah, gumption.

 

[Damocles]

The one at the local church here, and more I have seen.

Which evangelo nut was going to kill himself if he did not raise enough money a few years ago ? Went up in his tower and such...
Why would any christian donate money to keep him from going to heaven ?

Are they afraid of the physicality? Most people fear pain, it is only sane to do so. Fearing dying in a painful manner, doesn't mean that they are afraid of the aftermath.

I certainly don't want to go in a flaming and itching ball of pustules. I'd rather go in my sleep. I'd fear dying of painful bone cancer, not so much of getting blown up in a Space Shuttle.

 

[uscitizen]

No problem here if the suffering gets to be to much I will end it.

Who was the evangeonut I spoke of though, Oral Roberts ?
And some fool donated money to keep him from going to heaven. Must have been donated by satan.

 

[Damocles]

No problem here if the suffering gets to be to much I will end it.

Who was the evangeonut I spoke of though, Oral Roberts ?
And some fool donated money to keep him from going to heaven. Must have been donated by satan.

I remember what you are talking about, but I can't remember who it was. I kept thinking, "I'd shut up if I were you, you get to go to Heaven"...