Patrick Lawrence: A War of Rhetoric & Reality | Consortium News

[Scott]

Just finished reading this article, thought it was quite good. Hoping it generates a bit of good discussion here...

**
December 27, 2022

Washington put us all on notice when Zelensky got to town: It has no intention of seeking a diplomatic solution to the Ukraine crisis and every intention of recommitting indefinitely to its ideological war.

By Patrick Lawrence Special to Consortium News

Passing through Austin, Texas, the other night, we had drinks with a distinguished observer of global affairs and took the opportunity to ask how he thought the war in Ukraine would conclude. It is a common question these days. While no answer can be definitive, it is always interesting to discover what wise heads see out front.

“Either Russia prevails on its terms,” came the answer, “or there is a nuclear exchange.”

I do not think this stark assessment would have necessarily held up even a month ago. I may not have agreed with it, in any case. But the war has escalated markedly over the past week or two. And our Austin companion’s either/or prediction seems now to be the terrible truth of new circumstances.

There are numerous indications that Russia is preparing to launch a major offensive in coming weeks or months. With Volodymyr Zelensky’s circus-like visit to Washington last week, the Biden administration and the Democrat-controlled Congress have drastically, recklessly increased their investment in the Ukrainian president’s regime — a good-money-after-bad judgment if ever there was one.
**

Full article:
Patrick Lawrence: A War of Rhetoric & Reality | Consortium News

 

[Nordberg]

Indefinitely? Putin decides when it ends. If it goes on for years, it is his fault. Ukraine would be happy if he stopped. They are being blown apart by Putin. Can you understand why they would want it to end? Zelinsky was no circus. He was trying to keep America assisting him. If it ends up with nukes, it is simply Putin's fault. Ukraine does not have them.
I have read that Putin is losing his people and his army. He needs a victory to stay in power. He expected to walk through Ukraine.

 

[Scott]

Indefinitely? Putin decides when it ends. If it goes on for years, it is his fault. Ukraine would be happy if he stopped. They are being blown apart by Putin. Can you understand why they would want it to end? Zelinsky was no circus. He was trying to keep America assisting him. If it ends up with nukes, it is simply Putin's fault. Ukraine does not have them.
I have read that Putin is losing his people and his army. He needs a victory to stay in power. He expected to walk through Ukraine.

For starters, I think you are greatly overestimating Putin's influence in this war. Secondly, I believe there's a great deal of evidence that Putin did not start this war. There are articles that have been written about it as well. Here's one from this month:

No, Putin Did Not Start the War in Ukraine | strategic-culture.org

The war started almost 9 years ago, in February 2014, when then Ukrainian President Yanukovych left Ukraine fearing for his life after what many believe was a coup against his government. The evidence that the U.S. was involved in this event is well known. The only thing that isn't well known is just how deep and just how vile the U.S.'s actions in said coup were. There's certainly evidence that a faction of the U.S. government may have been involved in a massacre shortly before toppling of Yanukovych's government was complete:

The Hidden Truth About Ukraine, Kiev Euromaidan Snipers Kill Demonstrators. Italian Documentary Bombshell Evidence | globalresearch.ca

As to the present moment, I certainly think it's quite unfortunate that many Ukrainians and Russians are dying. That being said, I think that Russia has a lot more reason to be involved in what started as a civil war than the U.S. and other NATO countries. Let's not forget that prior to Russia's intervention, around 10,000 Eastern Ukrainians, many of whom were ethnic Russians or at least Russian speakers, had already been killed in the Ukrainian civil war, with the U.S. supplying western Ukraine with weapons and training. This started during Trump's time- Obama refused to arm western Ukraine, wisely predicting that if he did so, it would lead to an escalation with Russia. Trump was pressured into arming Ukraine and to keep the arms flowing. It seems Biden upped the ante, eventually leading to Putin deciding that the only way to end this conflict was to give up on a diplomacy only initiative and get involved militarily as well.

 

[Nordberg]

For starters, I think you are greatly overestimating Putin's influence in this war. Secondly, I believe there's a great deal of evidence that Putin did not start this war. There are articles that have been written about it as well. Here's one from this month:

No, Putin Did Not Start the War in Ukraine | strategic-culture.org

The war started almost 9 years ago, in February 2014, when then Ukrainian President Yanukovych left Ukraine fearing for his life after what many believe was a coup against his government. The evidence that the U.S. was involved in this event is well known. The only thing that isn't well known is just how deep and just how vile the U.S.'s actions in said coup were. There's certainly evidence that a faction of the U.S. government may have been involved in a massacre shortly before toppling of Yanukovych's government was complete:

The Hidden Truth About Ukraine, Kiev Euromaidan Snipers Kill Demonstrators. Italian Documentary Bombshell Evidence | globalresearch.ca

As to the present moment, I certainly think it's quite unfortunate that many Ukrainians and Russians are dying. That being said, I think that Russia has a lot more reason to be involved in what started as a civil war than the U.S. and other NATO countries. Let's not forget that prior to Russia's intervention, around 10,000 Eastern Ukrainians, many of whom were ethnic Russians or at least Russian speakers, had already been killed in the Ukrainian civil war, with the U.S. supplying western Ukraine with weapons and training. This started during Trump's time- Obama refused to arm western Ukraine, wisely predicting that if he did so, it would lead to an escalation with Russia. Trump was pressured into arming Ukraine and to keep the arms flowing. It seems Biden upped the ante, eventually leading to Putin deciding that the only way to end this conflict was to give up on a diplomacy only initiative and get involved militarily as well.

Putin has refused ti\o negotiate a settlement. Instead , when it was presented, he increased the bombing of the infrastructure and Ukraine's citizens. This is Putin's war.

 

[goat]

22 years of nonstop war has caused the refugee problem in Europe. If you can remember back 25 years, Europe faced a cheap labor shortage. Coincidence? There're many ways to profit from war other than building bombs. I still can't figure out what happened to all the antiwar dems.

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

Everyone that has an asshole has an opinion! The trick is don't show it when you state your opinion! [Geeko Sportivo]

What's next? Based on this asshole's logic, America should just hand itself back over to the United Kingdom!

I suppose this asshole should expect Texas to just hand itself back over to Mexico, as well!

Perhaps he thinks that the United States should have just tucked our tails between our legs and said to Japan, "Que Sera Sera- Whatever will be will be" after the Pearl Harbor attack! Don't forget that we used Nukes ourselves to stop Japan's aggression and butchery in the world, and not just because they attacked the United States!

No wonder this RUSSIAN SYMPATHIZING TRAITOROUS ANTI-DEMOCRACY idiot asshole was tossed off of Twitter!

I look at this way, if we all start becoming scared that Pooty Pie is going to nuke us, while he tries to hold the whole world hostage by his threats- Perhaps we deserve to be nuked for becoming such a nation of chicken-shits and chicken-littles!

I will also add, that if we ever become a nation to sit by and watch another country try to carry out a genocide of another free sovereign country, and without offering any help, JUST GO AHEAD AND FUCKING NUKE US, as we will certainly deserve it!

 

[Scott]

For starters, I think you are greatly overestimating Putin's influence in this war. Secondly, I believe there's a great deal of evidence that Putin did not start this war. There are articles that have been written about it as well. Here's one from this month:

No, Putin Did Not Start the War in Ukraine | strategic-culture.org

The war started almost 9 years ago, in February 2014, when then Ukrainian President Yanukovych left Ukraine fearing for his life after what many believe was a coup against his government. The evidence that the U.S. was involved in this event is well known. The only thing that isn't well known is just how deep and just how vile the U.S.'s actions in said coup were. There's certainly evidence that a faction of the U.S. government may have been involved in a massacre shortly before toppling of Yanukovych's government was complete:

The Hidden Truth About Ukraine, Kiev Euromaidan Snipers Kill Demonstrators. Italian Documentary Bombshell Evidence | globalresearch.ca

As to the present moment, I certainly think it's quite unfortunate that many Ukrainians and Russians are dying. That being said, I think that Russia has a lot more reason to be involved in what started as a civil war than the U.S. and other NATO countries. Let's not forget that prior to Russia's intervention, around 10,000 Eastern Ukrainians, many of whom were ethnic Russians or at least Russian speakers, had already been killed in the Ukrainian civil war, with the U.S. supplying western Ukraine with weapons and training. This started during Trump's time- Obama refused to arm western Ukraine, wisely predicting that if he did so, it would lead to an escalation with Russia. Trump was pressured into arming Ukraine and to keep the arms flowing. It seems Biden upped the ante, eventually leading to Putin deciding that the only way to end this conflict was to give up on a diplomacy only initiative and get involved militarily as well.

Putin has refused ti\o negotiate a settlement. Instead , when it was presented, he increased the bombing of the infrastructure and Ukraine's citizens. This is Putin's war.

If have no idea how you came to that conclusion. When Ukraine started its war of aggression against the ethnic Russian and Russian speaking population of eastern Ukraine 8 years ago, Putin tried to resolve the problem diplomatically for 8 years, culminating in the Minsk and Minsk II agreements, agreements which Ukraine later admitted it only agreed to so that it could buy time to continue its assault on eastern Ukraine after some bad campaigns. Only after Ukraine started a renewed assault on the Donbass region did Putin finally concede that the Minsk agreements were dead and it was time for some aggressive negotiations. Former Swiss Intelligence Officer Jacques Baud chronicles a good part of this in an article that I reference in a thread I made a while back here:

Former Swiss Intelligence Officer blows the whistle on West's Ukraine War Narrative | justplainpolitics.com

Even after Russia started its military operation in Ukraine, it still held out for peace talks, and early on in the Russian-Ukrainian war, there was some hope that it might actually happen. Medea Benjamin and Nicolas J.S. Davies from Code PINK wrote a great article back in September that highlighted this. Quoting from it:

**
For those who say negotiations are impossible, we have only to look at the talks that took place during the first month after the Russian invasion, when Russia and Ukraine tentatively agreed to a fifteen-point peace plan in talks mediated by Turkey. Details still had to be worked out, but the framework and the political will were there.

Russia was ready to withdraw from all of Ukraine, except for Crimea and the self-declared republics in Donbas. Ukraine was ready to renounce future membership in NATO and adopt a position of neutrality between Russia and NATO.

The agreed framework provided for political transitions in Crimea and Donbas that both sides would accept and recognize, based on self-determination for the people of those regions. The future security of Ukraine was to be guaranteed by a group of other countries, but Ukraine would not host foreign military bases on its territory.

On March 27, President Zelenskyy told a national TV audience, “Our goal is obvious—peace and the restoration of normal life in our native state as soon as possible.” He laid out his “red lines” for the negotiations on TV to reassure his people he would not concede too much, and he promised them a referendum on the neutrality agreement before it would take effect.

Such early success for a peace initiative was no surprise to conflict resolution specialists. The best chance for a negotiated peace settlement is generally during the first months of a war. Each month that a war rages on offers reduced chances for peace, as each side highlights the atrocities of the other, hostility becomes entrenched and positions harden.

The abandonment of that early peace initiative stands as one of the great tragedies of this conflict, and the full scale of that tragedy will only become clear over time as the war rages on and its dreadful consequences accumulate.
**

Full article:
We Urgently Need to Give Ukraine Peace Talks a Chance | Scheerpost

 

[Scott]

22 years of nonstop war has caused the refugee problem in Europe. If you can remember back 25 years, Europe faced a cheap labor shortage. Coincidence? There're many ways to profit from war other than building bombs. I still can't figure out what happened to all the antiwar dems.

I imagine you'd agree with retired U.S. Marine Corps General Smedley Butler and his speech/book "War is a Racket":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket

Anyway, I don't know why the Democratic party has become as war like, if not more so than the Republican party, but I think we can agree that that's the state of things these days.

 

[goat]

I imagine you'd agree with retired U.S. Marine Corps General Smedley Butler and his speech/book "War is a Racket":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket

Anyway, I don't know why the Democratic party has become as war like, if not more so than the Republican party, but I think we can agree that that's the state of things these days.

Smedley Butler testified that Wall Street banksters tried to hire him to coup FDR and seize control of government. Reality is stranger than fiction.

 

[Nordberg]

Smedley Butler testified that Wall Street banksters tried to hire him to coup FDR and seize control of government. Reality is stranger than fiction.

The incident showed the power of money. The "bankers". I heard including Prescott Bush, were held in a secret trial. The public was not given the names of the insurrectionists. They were not jailed or known in public. That sets the table for 1-6. The wealthy do not pay for their crimes except for Madoff because he robbed other rich people.

 

[anonymoose]

Just finished reading this article, thought it was quite good. Hoping it generates a bit of good discussion here...

**
December 27, 2022

Washington put us all on notice when Zelensky got to town: It has no intention of seeking a diplomatic solution to the Ukraine crisis and every intention of recommitting indefinitely to its ideological war.

By Patrick Lawrence Special to Consortium News

Passing through Austin, Texas, the other night, we had drinks with a distinguished observer of global affairs and took the opportunity to ask how he thought the war in Ukraine would conclude. It is a common question these days. While no answer can be definitive, it is always interesting to discover what wise heads see out front.

“Either Russia prevails on its terms,” came the answer, “or there is a nuclear exchange.”

Let’s assume a nuclear exchange. That’s quite vague and doesn’t address the end of the war. Then what?
From what I’ve read , if Russia does a nuclear strike against Ukraine , nato gets directly involved and Russia has no chance in a conventional war. Then what?
Russia literally does a scorched earth?
If they can’t have Ukraine they destroy the West including themselves?
China would not be pleased.
Either

 

[Nordberg]

Washington did not put anyone on notice.A peace deal would be between Ukraine and Russia. We are not part of that. Zelinsky approached the idea and Putin shut it down. Putin has crossed the Rubicon and cannot go back. His grip on Russia could be in serious trouble if he ended without something huge, like victory or huge tracts of land.

 

[Scott]

Let’s assume a nuclear exchange. That’s quite vague and doesn’t address the end of the war. Then what?

I think we can agree that it would be preferable if things didn't get to a nuclear exchange. It's a large part of why I talk so much about Ukraine- doing my part to try to resolve the situation before it gets any worse.

From what I’ve read , if Russia does a nuclear strike against Ukraine , nato gets directly involved and Russia has no chance in a conventional war. Then what?
Russia literally does a scorched earth?
If they can’t have Ukraine they destroy the West including themselves?
China would not be pleased.
Either

The assumption is frequently that Russia will only hit Ukraine, when the true backbone of the war is much further west. I think many westerners don't realize the parallels this whole situation has to the Cuban missile crisis. Back then, the U.S. was certainly prepared to wipe out any threat from Cuba and it wasn't averse to challenging Russia either. Now, consider the fact that this time the conflict is in Russia's backyard. What the U.S. and other western powers -should- be doing is trying to pull back from the brink. This war was never about Ukraine's freedom, it was about the U.S. having more control in the region and the ruthless suppression of any pro Russian support, as witnessed by the 8 year war Ukraine waged on the Donbass area. Even now, the Zelensky administration is taking away more worker freedoms while simultaneously maintaining its prohibition of men who can fight from leaving the country and -still- insisting that it will take back Crimea.

 

[Scott]

Washington did not put anyone on notice.A peace deal would be between Ukraine and Russia. We are not part of that. Zelinsky approached the idea and Putin shut it down. Putin has crossed the Rubicon and cannot go back. His grip on Russia could be in serious trouble if he ended without something huge, like victory or huge tracts of land.

I agree the Zelensky approached the idea, but it was Zelensky that then withdrew his proposal. It's all detailed in the article I linked to and quoted in Post #7. Russia isn't going to back down barring something like a nuclear exchange, which certainly wouldn't benefit Ukraine. Had the U.S. not interfered in what amounted to a coup back in 2014, I doubt any of this would have happened, but it's not too late for the U.S. to strong arm Ukraine into accepting a peace deal. The problem, ofcourse, is that most of the power brokers in the U.S. are loathe to do anything of this nature, considering they played a large part in placing Ukraine in the situation it's now in.