Rethinking the Endangered Species Act

TheDanold

Unimatrix
"THE delta smelt lives in brackish water, eats zooplankton and usually grows no longer than three inches (7.6 cm). It is not the sort of creature that environmentalists put on posters. But the little fish may prove as potent a symbol of America's odd approach to conservation as the California condor or the grey wolf. On August 31st a federal judge ruled that giant pumps supplying water to much of southern California were killing the smelt, which is protected under the Endangered Species Act. Those pumps will now have to shut down for much of the year, reducing water output by up to a third.

When the Endangered Species Act was signed in 1973, it was expected to protect charismatic fauna such as the bald eagle and Yellowstone's grizzly bears. These days it covers such obscure life-forms as the Stock Island tree snail, the Banbury Springs limpet and the triple-ribbed milk-vetch, along with 1,348 other animals and plants. In the absence of other powerful laws, it has become the chief weapon of environmentalists—and the bane of landowners and property-rights activists.

The act's most powerful tool is the power to designate “critical habitats”, in which development, farming and mining are greatly restricted. The designation of much of Oregon as a critical habitat for the northern spotted owl in 1992 led to restrictions on logging and the loss of some 10,000 jobs. Las Vegas's explosive growth has been slowed by the desert tortoise and the discovery of two rare plants. Last month Senator James Inhofe of Oklahoma blamed the American burying beetle for hampering energy production in his state.


Some say the law isn't very useful. Damien Schiff of the Pacific Legal Foundation notes that few species come off the threatened or endangered list—just 47 since 1973, the majority because they became extinct or were found thriving elsewhere. Some celebrated recoveries, like that of the bald eagle, occurred largely thanks to the banning of the insecticide DDT, rather than to the act. Worse, the law may actually speed up extinctions. Farmers have an incentive to destroy protected species before the biologists find them—a practice known as “shoot, shovel and shut up”.

To the act's supporters, all this suggests that the law needs only to be enforced more strongly. Kieran Suckling of the Centre for Biological Diversity accuses the government of dragging its feet over listing species. A bigger problem, says Dale Goble of the University of Idaho, is that the law does nothing to help species before they become endangered. The Fish and Wildlife Service now spends so much time dealing with lawsuits that it often fails to consider species for protection until it is almost too late. At that point, the strictest measures are put in place.

For all its problems, few talk openly about scrapping the act. It enjoys a totemic status akin to the Civil Rights Act; to challenge it is political suicide. In 2005 Richard Pombo, a seven-term California congressman, tried to amend the law. Attacked in his Republican primary and the general election for his environmental record as well as his ties to Jack Abramoff, a disgraced lobbyist, Mr Pombo was booted out of office last year—the only congressman to lose his seat in California.

If it is not in serious danger of being abolished, the law is gradually being tamed. The Bush administration has tried to encourage, rather than force, landowners to preserve rare species and has created a kind of habitat-trading scheme. Knowing that they will suffer if species decline to the point where they must be listed as threatened, mining companies are learning to tread softly around creatures such as the sage grouse. Such compromises infuriate environmental purists. But, imperfect as they are, they represent the best hope for balancing the need to protect nature with the need to keep the water running. "
http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9767816

I think the best approach is to remove the act as there is already a huge amount of land that is now nature preserves, that it is largely unneeded. For example, wolves may be then shot on private property reducing their numbers (which happens anyway, just not reported), but there are far more than enough wolves in Yellowstone park that the species would never go extinct.
If not, insects should definitely be removed from the list.

What are your thoughts?
 
You are asking a bunch of Greens how they think about getting rid of the Endangered Species Act?

That's like going to a science convention and trying to preach giving up NASA.
 
You are asking a bunch of Greens how they think about getting rid of the Endangered Species Act?

That's like going to a science convention and trying to preach giving up NASA.

I know a farmer personally who literally cut down a tree on his property for no other reason then the fact that he found out some endangered bird uses it as it's habitat. The act does nothing to encourage protection, just force it ineffectively and works the opposite when you consider that were the act non-existent then that tree would still be standing and that bird in question might have had a home.

I think among logical environmentalists (and a few do exist) they can admit changes are needed.
 
"I know a farmer personally who literally cut down a tree on his property for no other reason then the fact that he found out some endangered bird uses it as it's habitat. The act does nothing to encourage protection, just force it ineffectively and works the opposite when you consider that were the act non-existent then that tree would still be standing and that bird in question might have had a home."

Christ - you & your anecdotal, "I knew a guy who knew a guy" type "evidence."

Based on the farmer, you have concluded that the Endangered Species Act does "nothing to encourage protection," works "the opposite" of what it intends?
 
"I know a farmer personally who literally cut down a tree on his property for no other reason then the fact that he found out some endangered bird uses it as it's habitat. The act does nothing to encourage protection, just force it ineffectively and works the opposite when you consider that were the act non-existent then that tree would still be standing and that bird in question might have had a home."

Christ - you & your anecdotal, "I knew a guy who knew a guy" type "evidence."

Based on the farmer, you have concluded that the Endangered Species Act does "nothing to encourage protection," works "the opposite" of what it intends?
Why don't you read the article, it mentions my anecdotal evidence as common and widely known:

From the article:
"the law may actually speed up extinctions. Farmers have an incentive to destroy protected species before the biologists find them—a practice known as “shoot, shovel and shut up”."

What this guy did though was completely legal as the tree in question is not endangered and allowed to be cut (which is why I heard it from him and why he didn't keep it to himself I imagine), so I would be very surprised if other farmers didn't copy him when he told them.

The sad thing is that the tree is on a part of his land that he doesn't use or ever would use for farming (too swampy), it was never in danger of farming or development, but of course he still doesn't want to lose his land.
 
You're missing the point. You tend to focus on a very small slice of an issue that may (or may not) support your general stance, and ignore the broader picture.

A much more comprehensive analysis from 2005 shows that the Act is effective, and that the longer a particular species is listed, the more likely they are to recover:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/04/0418_050418_endangered.html

I understand that species come & go throughout history as a result of natural causes & evolution, but in general, I am a strong supporter of protecing species from the threat of unnatural/manmade infringements on their habitat or survival, within reasonable limits. I don't make a differentiation based on what species are "charismatic"; I understand the food chain & the delicate balance of nature, that doesn't differentiate between a bald eagle & a tree snail...
 
For once, I fully agree with you Dano.

I think the National Republican Party and its platform, should publically and forcefully insist on the abolition of the Endangered Species Act.
 
You're missing the point. You tend to focus on a very small slice of an issue that may (or may not) support your general stance, and ignore the broader picture.

A much more comprehensive analysis from 2005 shows that the Act is effective, and that the longer a particular species is listed, the more likely they are to recover:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/04/0418_050418_endangered.html

I understand that species come & go throughout history as a result of natural causes & evolution, but in general, I am a strong supporter of protecing species from the threat of unnatural/manmade infringements on their habitat or survival, within reasonable limits. I don't make a differentiation based on what species are "charismatic"; I understand the food chain & the delicate balance of nature, that doesn't differentiate between a bald eagle & a tree snail...
What makes you think that humans are not part of nature?
 
What makes you think that humans are not part of nature?

I knew someone - a typical provocateur, "devil's advocate" kind of poster - would go after this.

Of course, humans are part of nature. If you'd like, you can try to contend that all of our activities are "natural" as a result, and probably be technically, if not philisophically, correct on most of the points you make.

Have at it....
 
I knew someone - a typical provocateur, "devil's advocate" kind of poster - would go after this.

Of course, humans are part of nature. If you'd like, you can try to contend that all of our activities are "natural" as a result, and probably be technically, if not philisophically, correct on most of the points you make.

Have at it....
If humans are part of nature and I would be technically correct stating all of that, how would the Endangered species act protect animals from unnatural acts of humanity?
 
If humans are part of nature and I would be technically correct stating all of that, how would the Endangered species act protect animals from unnatural acts of humanity?


You're right. I was way off. Let's repeal the act, pave all of the land between the coasts, and review how well the Act protected various species.

Good call...
 
You're right. I was way off. Let's repeal the act, pave all of the land between the coasts, and review how well the Act protected various species.

Good call...
When did I make such an argument? You avoid the question by stating ridiculous strawmen then arguing against that. Your premise seems flawed, I asked questions for clarification and the best you can do is set up a ridiculous fallacy argument?
 
When did I make such an argument? You avoid the question by stating ridiculous strawmen then arguing against that. Your premise seems flawed, I asked questions for clarification and the best you can do is set up a ridiculous fallacy argument?

No. I'm making fun of you, and not taking your question seriously, because you are being intentionally obtuse as you do your "devil's advocate" thing, which is fast becoming your main schtick and is growing ever more tiresome.
 
No. I'm making fun of you, and not taking your question seriously, because you are being intentionally obtuse as you do your "devil's advocate" thing, which is fast becoming your main schtick and is growing ever more tiresome.
This has nothing to do with "devil's advocate" and everything to do with asking for clarification. It becomes tiresome when you assign an intent that is not there.

Protect the species, fine. Say it is from "unnatural" human action, I question your assertion that humans are not natural.

Then to do it with inane strawmen that have nothing even implied in my questions... That is incredibly weak. Maybe a bit of looking in the mirror might help rather than attempting to ascertain my opinion from questions about your assertions.
 
"Protect the species, fine. Say it is from "unnatural" human action, I question your assertion that humans are not natural."

Look at this statement. I never said that humans are unnatural. That doesn't mean that some of our activities don't qualify under what I would call "natural."

This is what I mean by intentionally obtuse. Either that, or you're just f'in stupid. You choose.
 
There is one thing about man ,he can manipulate his enviroment in such a way as to completely make it uninhabitable for generations.

No other living thing can do this.

Now if you call that natural then fine but it still does nto change the fact that it will also every likely be the undoing of man (along with other species) if he does not refrain from doing it.

When we make exstinct with out actions other species we can never be sure of the empact on the entire ecosystem. Until we know everything that there is to know it is extremely stupid to do it out of spite or greed when we can stop it.
 
... I am a strong supporter of protecing species from the threat of unnatural/manmade infringements on their habitat or survival, within reasonable limits. I don't make a differentiation based on what species are "charismatic"; I understand the food chain & the delicate balance of nature, that doesn't differentiate between a bald eagle & a tree snail...

Look at this statement. I never said that humans are unnatural. That doesn't mean that some of our activities don't qualify under what I would call "natural."

This is what I mean by intentionally obtuse. Either that, or you're just f'in stupid. You choose.

I don't choose. I post above where you stated that such actions are "unnatural" I then asked a question where you stated I would be technically correct in stating quite the opposite. Then pretend you didn't make the original assertion.

Then you create fallacious strawmen that were not even implied in my questions. I ask philosophical questoins for a philosophical argument, instead you pretend that the question is invalid and that I make assertions not in evidence.

I am sorry if the question made you uncomfortable. But I will not apologize for presenting it.
 
"I know a farmer personally who literally cut down a tree on his property for no other reason then the fact that he found out some endangered bird uses it as it's habitat. The act does nothing to encourage protection, just force it ineffectively and works the opposite when you consider that were the act non-existent then that tree would still be standing and that bird in question might have had a home."

Christ - you & your anecdotal, "I knew a guy who knew a guy" type "evidence."

Based on the farmer, you have concluded that the Endangered Species Act does "nothing to encourage protection," works "the opposite" of what it intends?

Well, I've actually seen that sort of stuff too...
 
Back
Top