APP - Robert E. Lee is Not Our Heritage

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midcan5

Member
There is a statute in Ohio from the Civil War that is our heritage. You can see it here: http://www.harrisonnewsherald.com/?p=10872. America was founded on the belief that all men are created equal, it took a while to achieve that and some may say we still aren't there. Let's not go backward. White nationalists, white supremacists, the alt-right, KKK, and neo-Nazis do not represent the heritage that is America. The Confederacy sought to destroy our heritage as Americans not support it, that much should be clear. Over six hundred thousand died to maintain America's dream of equality for all.

"It is a ‘white man’s government,’ is it? Why, the very first blood shed for the assertion of your independence and the establishment of your nationality, upon the field of Lexington, was the blood of a black citizen of Massachusetts. And when they came to the work, after the victory had been achieved, and the independence of the nation acknowledged, of organizing a constitutional government of the United States, in a majority of the States of the Union the black men voted with white men, and the man who denies it is simply ignorant of the history of his own country. . . .

Your armies bore witness that 175,000 of the black population, made free by the proclamation of liberty, were in the army of the republic. When you consider that the majority of the black population were the slaves of rebels, and within their territory, unable to signify to the United States Government their unwillingness to serve it, the fact that as large a population of the black population as of the free whites rushed to the defense of your flag, speaks well for their patriotism. . . "

Source: https://balkin.blogspot.com, 'John Bingham on Racial Equality' Gerard N. Magliocca

"Bingham lived two more years and died in Cadiz on March 19, 1900. Bingham was interred in Union Cemetery in Cadiz. In 1901, the citizens of Harrison County, Ohio erected a bronze statue honoring Bingham in Cadiz." http://www.ohiocivilwarcentral.com/entry.php

And there is a history and a heritage and it is not one we should be proud of.

"There is a crucial difference between leaders like Washington and Jefferson, imperfect men who helped create the United States, Ms. Gordon-Reed said, and Confederate generals like Jackson and Lee, whose main historical significance is that they took up arms against it. The comparison, she added, also “misapprehends the moral problem with the Confederacy.”" https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/...e-lee-george-washington-thomas-jefferson.html

"“We would not want to whitewash our history by pretending that Jim Crow and disenfranchisement or massive resistance to the civil rights movement never happened,” he said. “That is the part of our history that these monuments testify to.”" [from above]

States rights my....

John Bingham and the Story of American Liberty: The Lost Cause Meets the 'Lost Clause' https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=343460

I Studied the Alt-Right So You Don’t Have To: https://medium.com/form-and-resonance/i-studied-the-alt-right-so-you-dont-have-to-e123aa6a3d20


"Education is dangerous - every educated person is a future enemy." Hermann Goering

"Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life. Thus people haunted by the purposelessness of their lives try to find a new content not only by dedicating themselves to a holy cause but also by nursing a fanatical grievance." Eric Hoffer
 
Robert E. Lee was a traitor to the United States of America and he was a poor military leader of the South, He was a savage person to the slave families and individuals. More of the actual man is documented below with sources and other references inside the articles for the person who wants to understand the real history of slavery.

"Nazi Germany was also defeated. But while its surviving leadership was put on trial before the world, not one author of the Confederacy was convicted of treason. Nazi Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop was hanged at Nuremberg. Confederate General John B. Gordon became a senator. Germany has spent the decades since World War II in national penance for Nazi crimes. America spent the decades after the Civil War transforming Confederate crimes into virtues. It is illegal to fly the Nazi flag in Germany. The Confederate flag is enmeshed in the state flag of Mississippi."

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/08/no-confederate/535512/

"Lee’s slaves regarded him as “the worst man I ever see.”

"The argument here is that slavery is bad for white people, good for black people, and most importantly, it is better than abolitionism; emancipation must wait for divine intervention. That black people might not want to be slaves does not enter into the equation; their opinion on the subject of their own bondage is not even an afterthought to Lee."

"I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy." Robert E Lee

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/
 
No replies? That surprises me as usually you get a false equivalence argument from the right wing? Well conservatives should statues to people who wanted to destroy the US of A be removed?
 
Another excellent piece on what the Civil War was about, slavery, is quoted below. That the right wing conservatives and other supremacist types and authoritarians of the right have not or can not reply to the substance and content of this thread makes it an excellent source document for the student interested in the real reasons and cause.

"In Apostles of Disunion, which quotes and analyzes this rhetoric, Dew has produced an eye-opening study of the men appointed by seceding states as commissioners to visit other slave states—for example, Virginia and Kentucky—in order to persuade them also to leave the Union and join together to form the Confederacy. “I found this in many ways a difficult and painful book to write,” Dew acknowledges, but he nevertheless unflinchingly concludes that “to put it quite simply, slavery and race were absolutely critical elements in the coming of the war…. Defenders of the Lost Cause need only read the speeches and letters of the secession commissioners to learn what was really driving the Deep South to the brink of war in 1860–61.”"

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2001/04/12/southern-comfort/
 
midcan5 said:
No replies? That surprises me as usually you get a false equivalence argument from the right wing? Well conservatives should statues to people who wanted to destroy the US of A be removed?
Click to expand...

Not sure why they even allowed them to be displayed... Damn liberal country.... Apathy or perhaps they just felt sorry for the losers?? :dunno:
 
I thought this piece on a confederate general interesting.

"Senator William Mahone was one of the most maligned political leaders in post-Civil War America. He was also one of the most capable. Compared to the Roman traitor Cataline (by Virginia Democrats), to Moses (by African American congressman John Mercer Langston), and to Napoleon (by himself), Mahone organized and led the most successful interracial political alliance in the post-emancipation South. Mahone’s Readjuster Party, an independent coalition of black and white Republicans and white Democrats that was named for its policy of downwardly “readjusting” Virginia’s state debt, governed the state from 1879 to 1883."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...ased-from-history_us_599b3747e4b06a788a2af43e
 
midcan5 said:
There is a statute in Ohio from the Civil War that is our heritage. You can see it here: http://www.harrisonnewsherald.com/?p=10872. America was founded on the belief that all men are created equal, it took a while to achieve that and some may say we still aren't there. Let's not go backward. White nationalists, white supremacists, the alt-right, KKK, and neo-Nazis do not represent the heritage that is America. The Confederacy sought to destroy our heritage as Americans not support it, that much should be clear. Over six hundred thousand died to maintain America's dream of equality for all.

"It is a ‘white man’s government,’ is it? Why, the very first blood shed for the assertion of your independence and the establishment of your nationality, upon the field of Lexington, was the blood of a black citizen of Massachusetts. And when they came to the work, after the victory had been achieved, and the independence of the nation acknowledged, of organizing a constitutional government of the United States, in a majority of the States of the Union the black men voted with white men, and the man who denies it is simply ignorant of the history of his own country. . . .

Your armies bore witness that 175,000 of the black population, made free by the proclamation of liberty, were in the army of the republic. When you consider that the majority of the black population were the slaves of rebels, and within their territory, unable to signify to the United States Government their unwillingness to serve it, the fact that as large a population of the black population as of the free whites rushed to the defense of your flag, speaks well for their patriotism. . . "

Source: https://balkin.blogspot.com, 'John Bingham on Racial Equality' Gerard N. Magliocca

"Bingham lived two more years and died in Cadiz on March 19, 1900. Bingham was interred in Union Cemetery in Cadiz. In 1901, the citizens of Harrison County, Ohio erected a bronze statue honoring Bingham in Cadiz." http://www.ohiocivilwarcentral.com/entry.php

And there is a history and a heritage and it is not one we should be proud of.

"There is a crucial difference between leaders like Washington and Jefferson, imperfect men who helped create the United States, Ms. Gordon-Reed said, and Confederate generals like Jackson and Lee, whose main historical significance is that they took up arms against it. The comparison, she added, also “misapprehends the moral problem with the Confederacy.”" https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/...e-lee-george-washington-thomas-jefferson.html

"“We would not want to whitewash our history by pretending that Jim Crow and disenfranchisement or massive resistance to the civil rights movement never happened,” he said. “That is the part of our history that these monuments testify to.”" [from above]

States rights my....

John Bingham and the Story of American Liberty: The Lost Cause Meets the 'Lost Clause' https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=343460

I Studied the Alt-Right So You Don’t Have To: https://medium.com/form-and-resonance/i-studied-the-alt-right-so-you-dont-have-to-e123aa6a3d20


"Education is dangerous - every educated person is a future enemy." Hermann Goering

"Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life. Thus people haunted by the purposelessness of their lives try to find a new content not only by dedicating themselves to a holy cause but also by nursing a fanatical grievance." Eric Hoffer
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robert e lee was a fine ,to hang the banner of slavery on the men that fought in that war is a lie in it's self.

Less than 5% of the whites in the South owned slaves. Fully 3/4's of the white people of the South had neither slaves nor an immediate economic interest in the maintenance of slavery or the plantation system.

This was written by none other than the late John Hope Franklin in From Slavery to Freedom, McGraw-Hill, 1994., p. 123. Franklin was a Harvard educated Professor Emeritus of History and Professor of Legal History at Duke University. Dr. Franklin also happened to be a Black man. This may come as an inconvient truth to some here.

So, why did they fight. As Prof. V.L. Parrington said in his Pulitizer Prize winning book Main Currents in American Thought, "slavery was only the immediate casus belli. The deeper cause was the antagonistic conceptions of the theory and functions of the political state that emerged from antagonistic economic systems."

my great grandfather served in the 6th louisiana cav CSA ,he was a good man and ht did not win any slaves,as was the case for most ot the men that served.

shame on you
 
Heritage is not the same thing as history. While Robert E. Lee is part of U.S. history, I would not call him part of my heritage. He has had nothing to do with my heritage...

Heritage is the unique collection of crap (buildings, statues, parks, museums, etc.) around people that they use to create their culture. So, people who live in CO likely would never consider that guy part of their "heritage"...

While people in Virginia may consider his statues, etc. as part of their heritage, there is nothing particularly sacred about heritage, it also doesn't erase history if you choose to collect different items in order to build a more proud or even simply a different heritage than that of losing a frikin' war fought for a different nation who had the expansion of slavery encoded into their constitution.

In fact I would likely be embarrassed, and personally against, including statues to traitors who lost wars as part of my "heritage"... I'm glad I grew up elsewhere. You get to pick what you promote to build your culture, you don't get to choose what you use to build your history. History shouldn't be forgotten, and there is a place for that kind of thing and pedestals in poses that make them look like heroes isn't one of them...

I know I wouldn't want some statue of a KKK member sitting on or near the steps of Colorado's Capital Building.
 
chink said:
....my great grandfather served in the 6th louisiana cav CSA ,he was a good man and ht did not win any slaves,as was the case for most ot the men that served.

shame on you
Click to expand...

This discussion is about American history and the inability of Americans to accept what the Civil War was about. Revising history and making excuses for mistakes is not the function of this debate. Honesty is. We don't know your great grandfather so let him rest in peace. But that doesn't mean Americans cannot be honest about their history.

"I can testify about the South under oath. I was born and raised there, and 12 men in my family fought for the Confederacy; two of them were killed. And since I was a boy, the answer I’ve heard to this question, from Virginia to Louisiana (from whites, never from blacks), is this: “The War Between the States was about states’ rights. It was not about slavery.”

I’ve heard it from women and from men, from sober people and from people liquored up on anti-Washington talk. The North wouldn’t let us govern ourselves, they say, and Congress laid on tariffs that hurt the South. So we rebelled. Secession and the Civil War, in other words, were about small government, limited federal powers and states’ rights.

But a look through the declaration of causes written by South Carolina and four of the 10 states that followed it out of the Union — which, taken together, paint a kind of self-portrait of the Confederacy — reveals a different story. From Georgia to Texas, each state said the reason it was getting out was that the awful Northern states were threatening to do away with slavery." http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/19/opinion/19Ball.html


"Her conclusion is that the Americans who fought the Civil War overwhelmingly thought they were fighting about slavery, and that we should take their word for it."

"In this unprecedented account, Chandra Manning uses letters, diaries, and regimental newspapers to take the reader inside the minds of Civil War soldiers-black and white, Northern and Southern-as they fought and marched across a divided country. With stunning poise and narrative verve, Manning explores how the Union and Confederate soldiers came to identify slavery as the central issue of the war and what that meant for a tumultuous nation. This is a brilliant and eye-opening debut and an invaluable addition to our understanding of the Civil War as it has never been rendered before." http://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/107198/what-this-cruel-war-was-over-by-chandra-manning/

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/687330.What_This_Cruel_War_Was_Over

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27876395-troubled-refuge



Damocles said:
Heritage is not the same thing as history. While Robert E. Lee is part of U.S. history, I would not call him part of my heritage. He has had nothing to do with my heritage....
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with that statement, this is about American history and that is a history of all of us.

Dictionary definition: something that is handed down from the past, as a tradition: a national heritage of honor, pride, and courage.


"If you can cut the people off from their history, then they can be easily persuaded." Karl Marx
 
midcan5 said:
I have to disagree with that statement, this is about American history and that is a history of all of us.

Dictionary definition: something that is handed down from the past, as a tradition: a national heritage of honor, pride, and courage.


"If you can cut the people off from their history, then they can be easily persuaded." Karl Marx
Click to expand...
You have again conflated history and heritage. History simply is, and is something that should not be forgotten, heritage is what we choose to celebrate, to generate the flotsam of culture around us. We can choose better images to create a great culture while remembering history in museums rather than "heritage" by making hero worshiping statues of traitors.
 
Damocles said:
You have again conflated history and heritage. History simply is, and is something that should not be forgotten, heritage is what we choose to celebrate, to generate the flotsam of culture around us. We can choose better images to create a great culture while remembering history in museums rather than "heritage" by making hero worshiping statues of traitors.
Click to expand...

agreed......my heritage is based in my ancestors......all of them lived in the Netherlands until 1880.....the Civil War is part of American history.......heritage is personal, not corporate.......history is corporate......
 
PostmodernProphet said:
I've said it several times......
Click to expand...

So then if you say something several times it makes it true? LOL When you review who was put up these statues it is kinda interesting, also that there are so many. Consider that the Civil war was about destroying the United States and keeping people as objects to be sold. Is that something to be proud of? I was also surprised at the General who doesn't have a statue, see link below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monuments_and_memorials_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

Missing General: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...ased-from-history_us_599b3747e4b06a788a2af43e


"Her conclusion is that the Americans who fought the Civil War overwhelmingly thought they were fighting about slavery, and that we should take their word for it."

http://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/107198/what-this-cruel-war-was-over-by-chandra-manning/
 
midcan5 said:
This discussion is about American history and the inability of Americans to accept what the Civil War was about. Revising history and making excuses for mistakes is not the function of this debate. Honesty is. We don't know your great grandfather so let him rest in peace. But that doesn't mean Americans cannot be honest about their history.

"I can testify about the South under oath. I was born and raised there, and 12 men in my family fought for the Confederacy; two of them were killed. And since I was a boy, the answer I’ve heard to this question, from Virginia to Louisiana (from whites, never from blacks), is this: “The War Between the States was about states’ rights. It was not about slavery.”

I’ve heard it from women and from men, from sober people and from people liquored up on anti-Washington talk. The North wouldn’t let us govern ourselves, they say, and Congress laid on tariffs that hurt the South. So we rebelled. Secession and the Civil War, in other words, were about small government, limited federal powers and states’ rights.

But a look through the declaration of causes written by South Carolina and four of the 10 states that followed it out of the Union — which, taken together, paint a kind of self-portrait of the Confederacy — reveals a different story. From Georgia to Texas, each state said the reason it was getting out was that the awful Northern states were threatening to do away with slavery." http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/19/opinion/19Ball.html


"Her conclusion is that the Americans who fought the Civil War overwhelmingly thought they were fighting about slavery, and that we should take their word for it."

"In this unprecedented account, Chandra Manning uses letters, diaries, and regimental newspapers to take the reader inside the minds of Civil War soldiers-black and white, Northern and Southern-as they fought and marched across a divided country. With stunning poise and narrative verve, Manning explores how the Union and Confederate soldiers came to identify slavery as the central issue of the war and what that meant for a tumultuous nation. This is a brilliant and eye-opening debut and an invaluable addition to our understanding of the Civil War as it has never been rendered before." http://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/107198/what-this-cruel-war-was-over-by-chandra-manning/

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/687330.What_This_Cruel_War_Was_Over

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27876395-troubled-refuge





I have to disagree with that statement, this is about American history and that is a history of all of us.

Dictionary definition: something that is handed down from the past, as a tradition: a national heritage of honor, pride, and courage.


"If you can cut the people off from their history, then they can be easily persuaded." Karl Marx
Click to expand...


no it is about southern history ,and yes our heritage,let me help you ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;





Definition of heritage
1
: property that descends to an heir
2
a : something transmitted by or acquired from a predecessor : legacy, inheritance proud of her Chinese heritage a rich heritage of folklore The battlefields are part of our heritage and should be preserved.
b : tradition the party's heritage of secularism
3
: something possessed as a result of one's natural situation or birth : birthright
the heritage of natural freedom was long since cast away — V. L. Parrington

Less than 5% of the whites in the South owned slaves. Fully 3/4's of the white people of the South had neither slaves nor an immediate economic interest in the maintenance of slavery or the plantation system.

This was written by none other than the late John Hope Franklin in From Slavery to Freedom, McGraw-Hill, 1994., p. 123. Franklin was a Harvard educated Professor Emeritus of History and Professor of Legal History at Duke University. Dr. Franklin also happened to be a Black man. This may come as an inconvient truth to some here.

So, why did they fight. As Prof. V.L. Parrington said in his Pulitizer Prize winning book Main Currents in American Thought, "slavery was only the immediate casus belli. The deeper cause was the antagonistic conceptions of the theory and functions of the political state that emerged from antagonistic economic systems.

Dead Confederates, A Civil War Era Blog
“The War of Northern Aggression” as Modern, Segregationist Revisionism

Posted in Memory by Andy Hall on June 21, 2011
On the Diane Rehm show I mentioned earlier, I was struck by an observation made by Chandra Manning, that the term she first learned in elementary school in Florida, “the War of Northern Aggression,” is itself a modern term, one that was not used in the 19th century:

I grew up all over the country on naval bases and the first place that I learned about the Civil War in a classroom was Jacksonville, Fla. And we said the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. flag each morning, but we then sang “Dixie” to the pictures of Lee and Stonewall Jackson on either side. And so my introduction to the study of the Civil War has an interesting cast to it.

You can’t pigeonhole me North or South and so I was taken by his noticing of that phrase, “War of Northern Aggression,” because when I was six, that’s how it was introduced to me. So imagine my surprise to learn that that’s a 20th century invention, that nobody called it that during the war itself. Northerners called it “The Rebellion,” Southerners, if they called it anything other than “this awful war,” called it the “Civil War.”

Is that true, that the phrase “War of Northern Aggression” is a modern term? It is:

Dead Confederates, A Civil War Era Blog
“The War of Northern Aggression” as Modern, Segregationist Revisionism

Posted in Memory by Andy Hall on June 21, 2011
On the Diane Rehm show I mentioned earlier, I was struck by an observation made by Chandra Manning, that the term she first learned in elementary school in Florida, “the War of Northern Aggression,” is itself a modern term, one that was not used in the 19th century:

I grew up all over the country on naval bases and the first place that I learned about the Civil War in a classroom was Jacksonville, Fla. And we said the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. flag each morning, but we then sang “Dixie” to the pictures of Lee and Stonewall Jackson on either side. And so my introduction to the study of the Civil War has an interesting cast to it.

You can’t pigeonhole me North or South and so I was taken by his noticing of that phrase, “War of Northern Aggression,” because when I was six, that’s how it was introduced to me. So imagine my surprise to learn that that’s a 20th century invention, that nobody called it that during the war itself. Northerners called it “The Rebellion,” Southerners, if they called it anything other than “this awful war,” called it the “Civil War.”

Is that true, that the phrase “War of Northern Aggression” is a modern term? It is:







Google News can be used to track the appearance of words and phrases in its archive of hundreds of thousands of pages of historic newspapers, going back through the 19th century and beyond. Not only is “the War of Northern Aggression” a term that was not widely used at the time of the war, it didn’t come into wide use for nearly a century after, from the mid-1950s on. In Google’s indexing, it appears exactly once during the conflict, describing the war, not as a proper name as it is commonly seen today. (The single example in the 19th century comes from an 1862 speech by Union General John Alexander McClernand, who cautioned Tennesseans that “you have been told, gentlemen, that this is a war of Northern aggression. I deny it. It is no war of aggression. It is a war of defence, of defence of our common Constitution and Union.”)

As a proper noun, “the War of Northern Aggression” doesn’t even date back to what may be termed the “golden years” of the Lost Cause, around the turn of the 20th century.


quoting mrs manning's book as the gospel is just a little disingenuous of you to say the least,it is obvious she like you is a bias liberal,trying to rewrite history .
 
midcan5 said:
So then if you say something several times it makes it true? LOL
Click to expand...

he was referring to my statement that demmycrats can take them down......on the other hand, when I say something that is true, it is true even if I only say it once......

When you review who was put up these statues
Click to expand...

it was the demmycrats......are you pretending it wasn't?......
 
midcan5 said:
So then if you say something several times it makes it true? LOL When you review who was put up these statues it is kinda interesting, also that there are so many. Consider that the Civil war was about destroying the United States and keeping people as objects to be sold. Is that something to be proud of? I was also surprised at the General who doesn't have a statue, see link below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monuments_and_memorials_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

Missing General: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...ased-from-history_us_599b3747e4b06a788a2af43e


"Her conclusion is that the Americans who fought the Civil War overwhelmingly thought they were fighting about slavery, and that we should take their word for it."
Click to expand...

/shrugs......I could give a fuck....as I said, all my ancestors came to the US after 1880.....
 
Robert E. Lee is a part of American history and was a patriot of the South. Taking his statue down doesn't change the history and only makes us look weak and unhinged as a nation who has a lunatic fringe left in this country who still want to pretend we are fighting a civil war and can reverse the results of an election by stomping their collective feet loudly.
 
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