Something to consider about the abortion issue

Ross Dolan

Ross Dolan

Well-known member
Contributor
Six, possibly seven, of the nine Justices of the current SCOTUS are Catholics. (Gorsuch was raised Catholic but MAY consider himself to be Episcopalian.)

Opposition to abortion was never high on the list of things Protestant evangelicals championed until very recently. Catholicism has always had it at the very top of its list.

Until this massive Catholic majority on the SCOTUS took control (after lying to the Senate about how they would handle this issue) it was settled law. The reasonable, non-Catholic dominated SCOTUS of earlier years, agreed that a woman had a Constitutional right to an abortion. That right prevailed in America for 50 years.

Protestant evangelicals are the foundation of the American right wing…and it seems the Protestant evangelicals have been had by the Catholics. When the Protestant evangelicals (or perhaps I should say, IF the Protestant evangelicals) finally realize that they have become a pawn of Catholicism…I suspect things will change.

A really good no-holds-barred brawl might turn out to be a good thing, because almost certainly all religion will be damaged as a result.
 
Excellent observation.

America would be far better off if the power of organized religion was diminished.

I never understood why religious faith has to be organized. If someone wants to believe a version of unproven things, fine. They should be able to believe anything they want. I fail to understand how that translates into a need to organize with others of the same view and then try to push that view upon the rest of the world.

How does it work that unproven views are more believable if more people are part of a large group of humans that talk about those views? Nothing is proven. It's all just talk.

Is this indicative of a general insecurity of believers? They can't be content in their own views by themselves? They have to get organized to perpetuate their views?

And then you have this huge organization, built on insecurity it can't admit, sort of trying to justify itself.

So it gets into politics and government influence.

Because this is an organization of insecure people. They are not secure in themselves, on their own like everyone else, just being equal citizens. They have to have more. More power. A higher power. Be a part of a bigger organization of special 'good' people. And they call their holy guide 'the good book.'

It's like they don't get the part that we are all part of the greater human collective, simply through the fact of being human.

We don't need organized religion. Organized religion hurts us is so many ways. All the wars being the prime example.

They want to preach about being more compassionate to fellow humans, well that seems to be all just talk.

Advice for insecure supporters of organized religion, perhaps only in it for social support:

If you want to be 'like everyone else,' be a part of a large group, you should know that just by being human, you already are part of a large group. The human collective. It's great being 'just a human.' Believe anything you want. Why is it not simply something between you and your 'higher power?' Why the human grouping? Because that makes you feel more secure in your faith? Or is it because it is social support.

Drop organized religion and do your own thing. You don't have to join. You can be free of it. Especially if you or someone close to you is being or has been abused. Get away. It's OK. You don't have to stay in. Certainly if it is something you really don't actually believe in your heart. It's OK. There are a lot of secretive atheists in the church. You are not alone. You don't have to stay in. You can do your own thing. You just have to give yourself permission to be free of it. People are actually more understanding of freedom of belief than you might fear. There's lots of other social groups to join and find things to do with like-minded people. It doesn't have to be church.

Get informed. Learn how to tell the BS from the fact. Decide what issues you support and don't, weigh them all out, and vote on the basis of best understanding in your own view, not that of others. Hopefully, you vote on the basis of what you believe is best for humanity, for human civilization and perpetuity.

Otherwise, you're just being selfish. Or insecure. And feeling trapped.

And we have a little too much of that going on.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Six, possibly seven, of the nine Justices of the current SCOTUS are Catholics. (Gorsuch was raised Catholic but MAY consider himself to be Episcopalian.)

Opposition to abortion was never high on the list of things Protestant evangelicals championed until very recently. Catholicism has always had it at the very top of its list.

Until this massive Catholic majority on the SCOTUS took control (after lying to the Senate about how they would handle this issue) it was settled law. The reasonable, non-Catholic dominated SCOTUS of earlier years, agreed that a woman had a Constitutional right to an abortion. That right prevailed in America for 50 years.

Protestant evangelicals are the foundation of the American right wing…and it seems the Protestant evangelicals have been had by the Catholics. When the Protestant evangelicals (or perhaps I should say, IF the Protestant evangelicals) finally realize that they have become a pawn of Catholicism…I suspect things will change.

A really good no-holds-barred brawl might turn out to be a good thing, because almost certainly all religion will be damaged as a result.
Click to expand...

A good example how the irrationality of religion makes for terrible public policy.
 
PoliTalker said:
Excellent observation.

America would be far better off if the power of organized religion was diminished.

I never understood why religious faith has to be organized. If someone wants to believe a version of unproven things, fine. They should be able to believe anything they want. I fail to understand how that translates into a need to organize with others of the same view and then try to push that view upon the rest of the world.

How does it work that unproven views are more believable if more people are part of a large group of humans that talk about those views? Nothing is proven. It's all just talk.

Is this indicative of a general insecurity of believers? They can't be content in their own views by themselves? They have to get organized to perpetuate their views?

And then you have this huge organization, built on insecurity it can't admit, sort of trying to justify itself.

So it gets into politics and government influence.

Because this is an organization of insecure people. They are not secure in themselves, on their own like everyone else, just being equal citizens. They have to have more. More power. A higher power. Be a part of a bigger organization of special 'good' people. And they call their holy guide 'the good book.'

It's like they don't get the part that we are all part of the greater human collective, simply through the fact of being human.

We don't need organized religion. Organized religion hurts us is so many ways. All the wars being the prime example.

They want to preach about being more compassionate to fellow humans, well that seems to be all just talk.

Advice for insecure supporters of organized religion, perhaps only in it for social support:

If you want to be 'like everyone else,' be a part of a large group, you should know that just by being human, you already are part of a large group. The human collective. It's great being 'just a human.' Believe anything you want. Why is it not simply something between you and your 'higher power?' Why the human grouping? Because that makes you feel more secure in your faith? Or is it because it is social support.

Drop organized religion and do your own thing. You don't have to join. You can be free of it. Especially if you or someone close to you is being or has been abused. Get away. It's OK. You don't have to stay in. Certainly if it is something you really don't actually believe in your heart. It's OK. There are a lot of secretive atheists in the church. You are not alone. You don't have to stay in. You can do your own thing. You just have to give yourself permission to be free of it. People are actually more understanding of freedom of belief than you might fear. There's lots of other social groups to join and find things to do with like-minded people. It doesn't have to be church.

Get informed. Learn how to tell the BS from the fact. Decide what issues you support and don't, weigh them all out, and vote on the basis of best understanding in your own view, not that of others. Hopefully, you vote on the basis of what you believe is best for humanity, for human civilization and perpetuity.

Otherwise, you're just being selfish. Or insecure. And feeling trapped.

And we have a little too much of that going on.
Click to expand...

Lots of good observations and advice there, Poli. Thanks.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Yup.

And on this issue...they are just wrong.
Click to expand...

Religion is most valuable when it is a personal lifestyle that is actually followed, kept at home, and not used as a club to bash others who have chosen a different path -- or used to warp government to fit the religionists' values.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Six, possibly seven, of the nine Justices of the current SCOTUS are Catholics. (Gorsuch was raised Catholic but MAY consider himself to be Episcopalian.)

Opposition to abortion was never high on the list of things Protestant evangelicals championed until very recently. Catholicism has always had it at the very top of its list.

Until this massive Catholic majority on the SCOTUS took control (after lying to the Senate about how they would handle this issue) it was settled law. The reasonable, non-Catholic dominated SCOTUS of earlier years, agreed that a woman had a Constitutional right to an abortion. That right prevailed in America for 50 years.

Protestant evangelicals are the foundation of the American right wing…and it seems the Protestant evangelicals have been had by the Catholics. When the Protestant evangelicals (or perhaps I should say, IF the Protestant evangelicals) finally realize that they have become a pawn of Catholicism…I suspect things will change.

A really good no-holds-barred brawl might turn out to be a good thing, because almost certainly all religion will be damaged as a result.
Click to expand...

I don't think the issue is really religious, although religion is used as a fig leaf to disguise the real issues

No one actually believes a human life begins at conception. That's why nobody runs into fertility clinics to save petri dishes of blastocysts scheduled for disposal.

I think the desire to ban the reproductive freedom of women derives from misogyny and a desire to control women.

At the state level, the states that are most decisively Protestant have the most restrictive abortion laws. While the states with the highest proportion of Catholics, aka Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts have the most liberal laws on reproductive freedom.
 
BidenPresident said:
It is. Comes from the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...

Ii know where it comes from.

I am saying it doesn't matter what the Pope says.

It matters how people vote.

The states with the highest Catholic populations have liberal abortion laws.

The states which are decisively Protestant have the most reactionary abortion laws.
 
Cypress said:
I don't think the issue is really religious, although religion is used as a fig leaf to disguise the real issues

No one actually believes a human life begins at conception. That's why nobody runs into fertility clinics to save petri dishes of blastocysts scheduled for disposal.

I think the desire to ban the reproductive freedom of women derives from misogyny and a desire to control women.

At the state level, the states that are most decisively Protestant have the most restrictive abortion laws. While the states with the highest proportion of Catholics, aka Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts have the most liberal laws on reproductive freedom.
Click to expand...

I agree that the states of Maryland, New Jersey, New York and Massachusetts are very liberal on reproductive freedom...and I agree that they have a heavy Catholic population. I also agree that many of the more restrictive states seem to be less Catholic loaded. I've got to think about why that is a bit more, but the Catholic teachings on this issue have a huge impact on the issue.

I am not attacking Catholicism. I was raised a Catholic...and still do a lot of defending of Catholicism here on the Internet. Tough to rid one's self of the lessons of youth.

The Catholic composition of the SCOTUS is a factor...and our nation is the worse for it. Not sure how to deal with it, but the idea that same-sex marriages and contraception seem next up on their agenda...bothers me no end.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I agree that the states of Maryland, New Jersey, New York and Massachusetts are very liberal on reproductive freedom...and I agree that they have a heavy Catholic population. I also agree that many of the more restrictive states seem to be less Catholic loaded. I've got to think about why that is a bit more, but the Catholic teachings on this issue have a huge impact on the issue.

I am not attacking Catholicism. I was raised a Catholic...and still do a lot of defending of Catholicism here on the Internet. Tough to rid one's self of the lessons of youth.

The Catholic composition of the SCOTUS is a factor...and our nation is the worse for it. Not sure how to deal with it, but the idea that same-sex marriages and contraception seem next up on their agenda...bothers me no end.
Click to expand...

Thanks.
.
I think it comes down to politics, not religion.

Conservative Catholics and conservative Protestants are generally going to hold a dim view of the agency and reproductive freedom of women.

Liberal Catholics and liberal Protestants are likely to have a more generous view of the agency of women.
 
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