APP - Stealth radar detection (VHF)

[anatta]

Revealed at the 2016 Zhuhai Air Show, the system was advertised as VHF (very high frequency) radar, which offers 3-D electronic-scanning in azimuth and elevation.

Given the long-range detection capabilities of the radar, it would follow that Pakistan could procure a long-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) from its all-weather ally. Pakistan had, reportedly, expressed interest in three or four FD-2000 (i.e., the export variant of the HQ-9) long-range SAM systems from China.

China showed off two anti-stealth radars at Zhuhai. The first, the JY-27A 3-D long range surveillance and guidance radar, is a Very High Frequency (VHF) radar that is the Chinese military’s first active phased array radar. VHF radars, with their longer wavelengths, are more likely to detect stealth aircraft and it’s been known that China has been working on them for some time now.

Phased array radars, unlike traditional “dish” radars, are flat panels composed of hundreds of smaller transmit and receive panels. While traditional radars are like turning on a flashlight in a dark room – everyone can see where the beam of light is coming from – phased array radars are more difficult to detect. They’re also less susceptible to jamming.

The Chinese governments claims though are, unverified but allegedly it can detect hostile stealth fighters at ranges of up to 500km (310 miles). If so, that would make American stealth aircraft stick out like a sore thumb, revealing them before they could get into a fight.

Another anti-stealth radar on display at Zhuhai was the JY-26 Skywatcher-U. This radar works in a broader bandwidth, in VHF and Ultra-High Frequency (UHF) bands. It also has a range of 500km and can track up to 500 targets at once. Intriguingly, the Chinese government claimed that while under development in Shandong it was able to track American F-22 Raptors flying over South Korea.

 

[anatta]

https://www.quora.com/
Weeks after India received its first of the 36 Rafale fighter jets from France, open-source satellite imagery revealed the presence of a high-tech radar system – the China Electronics Technology Group Corporation’s (CETC) JY-27A – at the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) M. M. Alam airbase in Mianwali.

In addition, the JY-27A is resistant to jamming and also provides situational awareness of incoming ballistic missiles.

Jane’s reported that imagery examination indicates the radar arrived between Jun 5 and Aug 29 and was not yet fully erected as of Sept 2

 

[dukkha]

, open-source satellite imagery revealed the presence of a high-tech radar system – the China Electronics Technology Group Corporation’s (CETC) JY-27A – at the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) M. M. Alam airbase in Mianwali.
In addition, the JY-27A is resistant to jamming and also provides situational awareness of incoming ballistic missile

Are there still people who believe that stealth technology can make aircrafts undetectable?

 

[dukkha]

1. Canada developing quantum radar to detect stealth aircraft
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43877682
Canada has invested $2.7m (£1.93m) into developing quantum radar - a new technology that would greatly improve the detection of stealth aircraft.
The technology is being developed by the University of Waterloo to replace existing Arctic radar stations.

Quantum radar can theoretically detect objects with a greater level of accuracy than conventional radar.
It makes use of quantum illumination - the process of isolating pairs of entangled photons.
So far, the technology has been tested only in laboratories.

Canada and the US jointly maintain 54 North Warning System (NWS) radar stations in the Arctic, which act as the first line of early warning atmospheric air defence for North America.
These radar stations are approaching the end of their life spans, and could need to be replaced as early as 2025.

Several other countries are also interested in developing quantum radar, including China and Russia.

 

[dukkha]

Detecting stealth aircraft

Imagine you're firing out photons in the hope they will hit something and bounce back. If they bounce back, it tells you there is something there. That's how regular radar works, using microwave signals.

Stealth fighter jets and bombers are typically designed to have lots of angles, so that when a microwave photon bounces towards the body of the aircraft, instead of bouncing straight back to the sender, the photons bounce off in a different direction.

This means that fewer photons return to the detector, which makes the object seem "invisible" on conventional radar detectors.

With quantum radar, you have a pair of entangled photons, and one of the photons gets fired out.

It bounces off the hidden object, and because it is entangled, the detector can trace where it went to, and keep firing more photons until a picture is built up of where the object is in the atmosphere - a bit like a quantum version of the game Battleship.

According to quantum computing expert Prof Alan Woodward, of Surrey University, when an entangled photon is fired out, there is a much higher level of certainty that the photon detected is actually one that you fired, as opposed to other photons that just happened to be around the aircraft at the time.

"In theory, entangled photons should be a significant improvement over the results of conventional radar," he told the BBC.

"But we're at a very early stage, and this investment is about seeing whether we can really turn theory into practice."

Roger McDermott, a visiting senior research fellow at the department of war studies at King's College London, said that there were currently no known electronic warfare technologies capable of unmasking stealth aircraft.

Quantum radar could become a viable form of electronic warfare, he said, but so far, "there is little evidence that it has advanced much beyond the laboratory" in any country.

"It needs further research and development, as well as field testing before it reaches a realistic procurement option," he said.

 

[cancel2 2022]

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I told you about that a while back, however having the ability to detect an F-35 is one thing, being able to target and acquisition it is another matter completely. Read this article in Business Insider, it explains in more detail.

https://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-russia-china-radar-counter-stealth-2017-5

 

[dukkha]

.
I told you about that a while back, however having the ability to detect an F-35 is one thing, being able to target and acquisition it is another matter completely. Read this article in Business Insider, it explains in more detail.

https://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-russia-china-radar-counter-stealth-2017-5

Adversaries have to build a kill chain," said Flatley, a former F-35 pilot. Just because a radar can find an object — and Russian VHF radars can spot F-35s — doesn't mean it can fix, track, target, and consummate that kill chain with a missile hit, he said.

"We're not trying to prevent every aspect of that chain, just snap one of those links," Flatley said.

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

The Chinese governments claims though are, unverified but allegedly it can detect hostile stealth fighters at ranges of up to 500km (310 miles). If so, that would make American stealth aircraft stick out like a sore thumb, revealing them before they could get into a fight.

While detecting the presence of a stealth fighter is better than nothing, it isn't terribly useful if you can't detect its position accurately enough to guide an anti-aircraft missile to it.

And VHF radar is not accurate enough to guide an anti-aircraft missile to a target.

More importantly, while VHF radar can detect the presence of something as small as a stealth fighter, it has no ability to detect something as large as a stealth bomber.

If US warplanes were penetrating Chinese airspace, they would not be stealth fighters. They would be stealth bombers.

Hopefully though both sides will show restraint and there will never be such a war.

 

[anatta]

While detecting the presence of a stealth fighter is better than nothing, it isn't terribly useful if you can't detect its position accurately enough to guide an anti-aircraft missile to it.

And VHF radar is not accurate enough to guide an anti-aircraft missile to a target.

More importantly, while VHF radar can detect the presence of something as small as a stealth fighter, it has no ability to detect something as large as a stealth bomber.

If US warplanes were penetrating Chinese airspace, they would not be stealth fighters. They would be stealth bombers.

Hopefully though both sides will show restraint and there will never be such a war.

because it's over the horizon if detected that far -couldn't a dispatch of fighters go at it?
Detection must have some use even by itself

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

because it's over the horizon if detected that far -couldn't a dispatch of fighters go at it?
Detection must have some use even by itself

Going after an F-35 might be feasible.

The F-22 is a pretty competent dogfighter. I wouldn't want to be the person sent out to get in a dogfight with an F-22.

Stealth bombers don't have vertical stabilizers (which is what anti-stealth radar detects) so they slip through without even their general position being charted.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Over the horizon radar is hardly something new. The concept has been around since the 50's and sets using this technique have been in use since the 60's. Its mostly useful for early warning but hardly accurate enough to make it useful for targeting.
One recent use that has seen a major comeback in this type of system is the drug trade. OTH radar is now being used by the US to track low flying aircraft not using IFF systems in the Caribbean.

I don't see this as some breakthrough advance on China's part.

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

Over the horizon radar is hardly something new. The concept has been around since the 50's and sets using this technique have been in use since the 60's.

The significance is not the ability to see over the horizon, but the fact that the wavelength of the radar photons is the same size as the vertical stabilizers on fighter jets, allowing them to be detected regardless of stealth technology.

Its mostly useful for early warning but hardly accurate enough to make it useful for targeting.

That remains true today. Although some people think that's a surmountable problem and it's only a matter of time before VHF radar can be used for missile targeting.

I read a blogger a while back who thinks he sees clues that the US has secretly developed the ability to target stealth fighters with VHF radar. However, I think he is reading way too much into his clues. Good for us if he's right though.

I don't see this as some breakthrough advance on China's part.

Any ability to detect vertical stabilizers on stealth fighters will be useless against flying wing bombers that have no vertical stabilizers.