Suspending Reality

D

domer76

Verified User
A couple pretty good threads lately on the reality of the Bible.

They both beg the question - what is it about the “true believers” that allows them to suspend reality in their attempts to prove the Bible the true word of God?

Why do they need the divinity of Jesus for his message to be relevant? That goes for the virgin birth, as well.

If all the descendants of David had to report for the census, Bethlehem would have been overrun with people.

Aesop’s Fables can teach us a lot of lessons in morality, as well. Without the threat of punishment. And we recognize those as myths and fables. So? The messages are still valid.

Does religion require suspension or the absence of critical thinking?

Mystifying.
 
domer76 said:
A couple pretty good threads lately on the reality of the Bible.

They both beg the question - what is it about the “true believers” that allows them to suspend reality in their attempts to prove the Bible the true word of God?

Why do they need the divinity of Jesus for his message to be relevant? That goes for the virgin birth, as well.

If all the descendants of David had to report for the census, Bethlehem would have been overrun with people.

Aesop’s Fables can teach us a lot of lessons in morality, as well. Without the threat of punishment. And we recognize those as myths and fables. So? The messages are still valid.

Does religion require suspension or the absence of critical thinking?

Mystifying.
Click to expand...

Very few adults choose to be religious without having been taught it as a child.
 
BidenPresident said:
Very few adults choose to be religious without having been taught it as a child.
Click to expand...

Very true. Indoctrination seems to be the norm.

Still, the suspension of critical thinking mystifies me. What is with a believe system that makes people fearful of questioning things?
 
domer76 said:
A couple pretty good threads lately on the reality of the Bible.

They both beg the question - what is it about the “true believers” that allows them to suspend reality in their attempts to prove the Bible the true word of God?

Why do they need the divinity of Jesus for his message to be relevant? That goes for the virgin birth, as well.

If all the descendants of David had to report for the census, Bethlehem would have been overrun with people.

Aesop’s Fables can teach us a lot of lessons in morality, as well. Without the threat of punishment. And we recognize those as myths and fables. So? The messages are still valid.

Does religion require suspension or the absence of critical thinking?

Mystifying.
Click to expand...
There is also the problem of Quirinus not being the governor during Herod’s reign, amongst other inaccuracies.
 
domer76 said:
A couple pretty good threads lately on the reality of the Bible.

They both beg the question - what is it about the “true believers” that allows them to suspend reality in their attempts to prove the Bible the true word of God?

Why do they need the divinity of Jesus for his message to be relevant? That goes for the virgin birth, as well.

If all the descendants of David had to report for the census, Bethlehem would have been overrun with people.

Aesop’s Fables can teach us a lot of lessons in morality, as well. Without the threat of punishment. And we recognize those as myths and fables. So? The messages are still valid.

Does religion require suspension or the absence of critical thinking?

Mystifying.
Click to expand...

It is interesting, but understandable. For many religion is implanted from birth. Some of their earliest learnings were things related to their family's faith. So it becomes deeply embedded and seldom really "questioned".

It must be kind of scary to be faced with the existence of people who do not have similar beliefs since they "feel" so common to the believer. And, besides, there are always going to be "big questions" that can't be answered by direct observation so there's always going to be a place for the beliefs to exist. They bring comfort and a sense of understanding of how things work (even if they may be mistaken)

Humans are "model-making machines" in that we model reality and attempt to understand the drivers. Since so many things are beyond our direct control or understanding, there's a need within people to create "just so" stories that make sense of the world around them. Even atheists do this. No one is immune.

The part I find frustrating is that even if you approach the believer without being nasty or snarky the believer sometimes gets super-defensive and will cut off the conversation. Again, I kind of understand (no one likes their beliefs questioned at the fundamental level), but it also makes me wonder how much they've thought about their own faith.

It was through thinking about my own faith that led me to atheism, but I also understand that is my path and no one elses. I would never want to de-convert a believer, but I do find it frustrating that so many believers simply seem incapable of discussing their faith in any manner that even hints of critique.
 
domer76 said:
Very true. Indoctrination seems to be the norm.

Still, the suspension of critical thinking mystifies me. What is with a believe system that makes people fearful of questioning things?
Click to expand...

There are still times that I read new research that upends something that many believed to be true from earlier research but is, in fact, false and being kind of uneasy about it. It's a natural human response to threats to our constructed "model of reality".

Frustrating, yes, but understandable.
 
Phantasmal said:
There is also the problem of Quirinus not being the governor during Herod’s reign, amongst other inaccuracies.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I’m aware of that. Ya’ know, inaccuracies don’t bother me so much as the need to accept these things as factually true without examination.

I can accept the message of Jesus, and appreciate it, without having to swallow the other stuff. A critical thinker knows there was no need to trace his lineage to David if he was of a virgin birth. Joseph’s lineage is irrelevant. And for Chrissake (pun intended), why the need to go back 1000 years for the purposes of that census. How frikkin many ancestors would David have by that time?
 
domer76 said:
A couple pretty good threads lately on the reality of the Bible.

They both beg the question - what is it about the “true believers” that allows them to suspend reality in their attempts to prove the Bible the true word of God?

Why do they need the divinity of Jesus for his message to be relevant? That goes for the virgin birth, as well.

If all the descendants of David had to report for the census, Bethlehem would have been overrun with people.

Aesop’s Fables can teach us a lot of lessons in morality, as well. Without the threat of punishment. And we recognize those as myths and fables. So? The messages are still valid.

Does religion require suspension or the absence of critical thinking?

Mystifying.
Click to expand...

The Virgin birth and the resurrection sure seem mythical at face value.

Judging from my only experience with Eastern Christianty, I don't think the virgin birth or the discrepancies about which day Jesus was executed really matter all that much to the laity.

. Aesop's fables invokes the gods too.

Humans tend to like a little mystery and myth in their lives. That's why UFOs and the Loch Ness monster will never go away.

Most people don't just want a list of do's and dont's. They want something that gives purpose and meaning in their lives. I think that's why Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism have stood the test of time in a way that Aesop's fables or the Iliad haven't relatively speaking
 
Cypress said:
The Virgin birth and the resurrection sure seem mythical at face value.

Judging from my only experience with Eastern Christianty, I don't think the virgin birth or the discrepancies about which day Jesus was executed really matter all that much to the laity.

. Aesop's fables invokes the gods too.

Humans tend to like a little mystery and myth in their lives. That's why UFOs and the Loch Ness monster will never go away.

Most people don't just want a list of do's and dont's. They want something that gives purpose and meaning in their lives. I think that's why Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism have stood the test of time in a way that Aesop's fables or the Iliad haven't relatively speaking
Click to expand...
And yet, it is more than likely they, too, will be replaced as humans evolve or devolve.
 
Phantasmal said:
And yet, it is more than likely they, too, will be replaced as humans evolve or devolve.
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right. Even modern Judaism, especially in it's Reform and Conservative strands, doesn't really resemble the religion of the ancient Hebrews of the first temple period.
 
domer76 said:
Very true. Indoctrination seems to be the norm.

Still, the suspension of critical thinking mystifies me. What is with a believe system that makes people fearful of questioning things?
Click to expand...

Organized religion does this to create influence over populations


Instead of teaching the philosophy of goodness to others as their main goal


They want you to just follow the church and support it for its own sake


Not really what Jesus wanted
 
Cypress said:
The Virgin birth and the resurrection sure seem mythical at face value.

Judging from my only experience with Eastern Christianty, I don't think the virgin birth or the discrepancies about which day Jesus was executed really matter all that much to the laity.

. Aesop's fables invokes the gods too.

Humans tend to like a little mystery and myth in their lives. That's why UFOs and the Loch Ness monster will never go away.

Most people don't just want a list of do's and dont's. They want something that gives purpose and meaning in their lives. I think that's why Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism have stood the test of time in a way that Aesop's fables or the Iliad haven't relatively speaking
Click to expand...

Most rational people look for purpose in their lives without the dos and don’ts, but try to remove the 10 Commandments from public property and the fundamentalists lose their collective minds.

I think it was Carlin who pointed out that the 10 Commandments were nothing more than a set of rules that most normal, compassionate people would adhere to naturally.

Don’t lie.
Don’t steal
Don’t be jealous
Don’t screw your friend’s wife
Don’t murder
Respect your parents, your elders.

I certainly have no need a virgin birth, a resurrection, a Trinity or the supernatural in general for that moral code.
 
Obtenebrator said:
The part I find frustrating is that even if you approach the believer without being nasty or snarky the believer sometimes gets super-defensive and will cut off the conversation. Again, I kind of understand (no one likes their beliefs questioned at the fundamental level), but it also makes me wonder how much they've thought about their own faith.

It was through thinking about my own faith that led me to atheism, but I also understand that is my path and no one elses. I would never want to de-convert a believer, but I do find it frustrating that so many believers simply seem incapable of discussing their faith in any manner that even hints of critique.
Click to expand...

Many "atheists" have the same problem (get defensive) when people question the things they "believe."

In a discussion about "religion"...a "belief" is nothing more than a blind guess about an unknown.

"Faith" is nothing more than insistance that the blind guess is correct.

If we were able to get away from using the words believe, belief, and faith in these discussions...we might get somewhere.
 
domer76 said:
A couple pretty good threads lately on the reality of the Bible.

They both beg the question - what is it about the “true believers” that allows them to suspend reality in their attempts to prove the Bible the true word of God?

Why do they need the divinity of Jesus for his message to be relevant? That goes for the virgin birth, as well.

If all the descendants of David had to report for the census, Bethlehem would have been overrun with people.

Aesop’s Fables can teach us a lot of lessons in morality, as well. Without the threat of punishment. And we recognize those as myths and fables. So? The messages are still valid.

Does religion require suspension or the absence of critical thinking?

Mystifying.
Click to expand...

It's interesting to ponder and discuss. OTOH I really don't care what other ppl choose to believe (or not to believe), as long as they don't insist that everyone else does the same. Our problems come from those who refuse to accept established facts and proven science. Climate change and vaccines are too good examples of this. A small but far-too-vocal segment of our society has decided that both of these topics are hoaxes, frauds, bullshit. That's fine. But they want the rest of us to resist reality along with them, to our mutual detriment. No thanks.
 
domer76 said:
Very true. Indoctrination seems to be the norm.

Still, the suspension of critical thinking mystifies me. What is with a believe system that makes people fearful of questioning things?
Click to expand...

Good question. I've known several fundie Xtians who either sent their kids to Xtian schools, or home-schooled because they didn't want their kids exposed to anything that might contradict what they were teaching them. Their kids were also not allowed to watch any non-approved TV programs, movies, read non-approved books, or listen to non-approved music. I would think that you would want to demonstrate the strength of your faith by letting them experience secular things, but nope. It's interesting that some Amish sects actually want their young adults to go out into the "world" before deciding to live the Amish way of life, to test their faith.
 
domer76 said:
Most rational people look for purpose in their lives without the dos and don’ts, but try to remove the 10 Commandments from public property and the fundamentalists lose their collective minds.

I think it was Carlin who pointed out that the 10 Commandments were nothing more than a set of rules that most normal, compassionate people would adhere to naturally.

Don’t lie.
Don’t steal
Don’t be jealous
Don’t screw your friend’s wife
Don’t murder
Respect your parents, your elders.

I certainly have no need a virgin birth, a resurrection, a Trinity or the supernatural in general for that moral code.
Click to expand...

Some people can find complete purpose and meaning in the materialistic aspects of this Earth.

I think the majority of people in history, and even today, wanted to find a higher transcendent meaning beyond the ephemeral activities of physical life.

I think that's why religion or spirituality will always endure.

Lists of do's and dont's don't really give any explanation of why that is the right way to live. They don't explain why a certain set of a activities are categorical imperatives, rather that just voluntary lists of good social etiquette.

The Daodejing, the Analects, the Dhammapada, the Gospel of Luke do tend to give deeply profound explanations of the reasons for a certain kind of life.

My parents gave me a list of rules to live by. But a set of rules is not a method of understanding.

I learned a lot from my parents rules and example, I learned a lot from my physics and biology textbooks. But I never felt it neccesarily was a complete understanding of my existence and experience in life. That's why I started reading philosophical and religious literature about 20 years ago.
 
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