Tax Reform Part II

cawacko

Well-known member
A couple of things that jumped out at me. With have the highest corporate tax rate in the rich world yet bring in little revenue because of all the allowable deductions. Agreeing to lower rates and eliminate some/many deductions seems the ideal way to me to simplify and make more efficient our tax code. Of course short of going to a flat tax negotiating what the new rates would be and which deductions to eliminate would have to take place but I do not understand the argument that our corporate tax code is fine as-is.



Fixing the tax sieve

Two lawmakers are determined to overhaul America’s woeful tax code. Will their parties let them?

WHEN politicians show up at a manufacturer’s research centre and a family bakery, they are usually chasing votes. Max Baucus and Dave Camp were on a different sort of campaign when they hit the Minneapolis area on July 8th. Mr Baucus, a Democratic senator, and Mr Camp, a Republican congressman, are touring the nation to drum up support for tax reform.

Policy wonks have long dreamed of simplifying America’s tax code. Hopes soared after last year’s election, when Barack Obama and John Boehner, the Republican Speaker of the House of Representatives, both suggested that tax reform could be part of a grand bargain that raised tax revenue, curbed spending and cut the deficit. Alas, negotiations between the two men foundered.

However, Mr Baucus and Mr Camp, who head the tax-writing committees in their respective chambers, have not given up. For both, it is a crusade. Mr Baucus will retire at the end of 2014; tax reform would cap his long career. He has held 30 hearings in three years and published ten papers detailing options for reform.

Mr Camp’s clock is ticking, too: his term as chairman of the Ways and Means Committee ends next year. Mr Camp took up the cause in 2010. Since then he has published three draft proposals on tax reform, held 20 hearings and formed 11 working groups. The two men meet weekly, have a joint Twitter feed and now travel together.

Both want to address the tax code’s two big problems. First, it is inefficient: it imposes high marginal rates on individual and corporate income, which discourages work and investment, but it leaks a colossal $1.1 trillion a year through countless deductions, exemptions and credits. (To put that in perspective, total federal tax revenues are only $2.8 trillion.) These loopholes and deductions, (collectively known as “tax expenditures”) distort the economy by favouring some activities at others’ expense. The mortgage-interest deduction, for example, encourages Americans to borrow money and buy huge houses. The deduction for employer health insurance encourages wasteful health spending.

Too high and full of holes

Corporate-tax rates are the highest in the rich world: add state and local taxes to the 35% federal rate and they reach 39.2%. Yet thanks to tax breaks, they generate surprisingly little revenue. Accountants find creative ways to shift income to low-tax countries. How much tax companies actually pay varies wildly, depending on their ability to exploit loopholes and stash money abroad. Even Mr Obama agrees that the corporate rate should be lowered. This creates pressure to chop the top individual rate of 39.6% as well; otherwise businessfolk who file as individuals would incorporate to pay the lower rate.

The second problem is that the tax code is maddeningly complex. It is 4m words long and changes, on average, once a day. A 90-page booklet from the Internal Revenue Service is necessary to explain the 15 different tax incentives for higher education. There are 42 different definitions of a small business. And so on.

Mr Camp wants to produce a bill by the end of the year. He proposes to cap the corporate and individual rate at 25%, exempt most foreign profits from American tax (with safeguards to stop firms shifting intellectual-property income to tax havens), provide more uniform tax treatment of financial derivatives and simplify how businesses pay tax at individual rates.

Mr Baucus offers less detail but a bold approach. He and the top Republican on his committee have proposed starting with no tax expenditures whatsoever, and have asked other finance-committee members to say which giveaways and loopholes they wish to restore, reminding them how much higher that would raise tax rates.

Success looks elusive, however. Each loophole that is closed will hurt a clearly-defined group of voters or companies, many of them well-organised. A non-partisan summary of all the suggestions received by Mr Camp’s working groups found that most wanted to preserve and even expand existing tax breaks.

The other hurdle is deciding whether tax reform should raise new revenue. Mr Baucus says yes. Mr Camp says no; he wants to use every dollar raised by closing loopholes to reduce rates. Mr Camp and Mr Baucus are both pragmatic centrists, so they could probably forge an agreement. But their parties are another matter.

Republican leaders, having reluctantly agreed to higher taxes in January, are adamant that they will not do so again. As for the Democrats, few are passionate about tax reform except as a way to raise more money. White House support is critical. Yet Mr Obama’s idea of tax reform is to raise nearly $600 billion over the next decade by limiting tax breaks without lowering rates. Mr Baucus voted against his own party’s budget resolution in March because its proposed tax hikes were “too much”. Still, he admits that without new revenue, tax reform is “nearly impossible”.

The best opportunity for reform may come in October, when the Treasury again hits its legal borrowing limit (the “debt ceiling”). Mr Baucus and Mr Camp may try to make raising the ceiling conditional either on tax reform or a fast-track process for it. Mr Obama, however, insists that the ceiling must be raised unconditionally.

Optimists hope the appeal of tax reform could be the catalyst for a grand bargain, with Republicans accepting higher tax revenues and Democrats agreeing to curb the growth of entitlement programmes such as Social Security and Medicare (pensions and health care for the elderly). That would put America on the path to simpler taxes and sound finances. But don’t hold your breath.


http://www.economist.com/news/unite...ericas-woeful-tax-code-will-their-parties-let
 
I applaud your effort to start a non-GZ/TM thread.

And agree, which won't be too exciting for anyone. Lowering rates in exchange for removing loopholes = good.
 
I don't know anyone that claims the corporate tax system is fine as is; there is just disagreement as to how to change it for the better.
 
Obviously you all know my position, but since I would enjoy this over another Zimmerman/Martin thread...

Flat tax with a high standard deduction. All income from all sources taxed the same. No other deductions or loopholes.

two brackets... 20% after a $30k standard deduction per adult.

30% on all earnings after you reach $500k (reduced down per Dung suggestion last time we had this conversation)

No corporate tax.
 
sorry wacko... no one seems to want to engage this topic right now. Can't imagine why... with all the hand holding and skipping that is taking place on the other threads.
 
I just know that I don't want to be taxed at nearly 50% like some nations do. There has to be some way of repairing the system we currently have without doing anything remotely like that.
 
I just know that I don't want to be taxed at nearly 50% like some nations do. There has to be some way of repairing the system we currently have without doing anything remotely like that.

Just need to get rid of the loopholes and deductions. Then the rates don't have to go anywhere near that high. We can do it in a very transparent manner. But politicians won't do it. Because they depend on the bribes of corporations and special interest groups to fund their hate campaigns against their opponents. The media won't talk about such a plan because they depend upon the bribes politicians get to be used in advertising.
 
Just need to get rid of the loopholes and deductions. Then the rates don't have to go anywhere near that high. We can do it in a very transparent manner. But politicians won't do it. Because they depend on the bribes of corporations and special interest groups to fund their hate campaigns against their opponents. The media won't talk about such a plan because they depend upon the bribes politicians get to be used in advertising.

I agree with this and that's why I feel like that one day, and it might be sooner rather than later, we'll have more of the "we want to be like Europe" types in office and magically we'll be at that same level of taxation....or worse and our freedoms will be a thing of the past. The voice of moderation ... from either side on any issue ... must be silenced.
 
I don't know anyone that claims the corporate tax system is fine as is; there is just disagreement as to how to change it for the better.

I agree. But I disagree with SF on "no corporate taxes"; they benefit from roads, infrastructure, schools, security and other things paid for by the govt; so corporations need to pay taxes.

My worry of course is that Congress will get rid of all the loopholes but then give corporations a ridiculously low tax rate.
 
Oh - I do agree having high rates w/loopholes give politicians power to grant favors to corporations (i.e. more loopholes) so that corporations will donate to them; and that isn't good.
 
I agree. But I disagree with SF on "no corporate taxes"; they benefit from roads, infrastructure, schools, security and other things paid for by the govt; so corporations need to pay taxes.

My worry of course is that Congress will get rid of all the loopholes but then give corporations a ridiculously low tax rate.

I think it's pretty safe to say Congress will never get rid of all the loopholes/deductions. Just not going to happen.
 
I agree. But I disagree with SF on "no corporate taxes"; they benefit from roads, infrastructure, schools, security and other things paid for by the govt; so corporations need to pay taxes.

My worry of course is that Congress will get rid of all the loopholes but then give corporations a ridiculously low tax rate.


In an ideal world I would agree to no corporate income tax and would prefer some other means of taxation on welathy executives and shareholders. But we don't live in an ideal world. And the government needs the revenue (1-2% of GDP, give or take - not a hige number but we can't really give up any sources of revenue, really). So it's kinda by default a necessity even though it doesn't really make a whole heck of a lot of sense.
 
I agree. But I disagree with SF on "no corporate taxes"; they benefit from roads, infrastructure, schools, security and other things paid for by the govt; so corporations need to pay taxes.

My worry of course is that Congress will get rid of all the loopholes but then give corporations a ridiculously low tax rate.

With a corporation, you are already taxing those who own the place, run the place and work at the place. You tax them according to what they get out of the corporation.

A corporate tax is paid for by one of four groups...

1) Owners/shareholders
2) Executives/Board of directors
3) Other employees of the firm
4) Consumers via higher prices

What order would you guess the corporations are going to try to pass that tax to? My contention is they will try to pass it to the consumer first, employees second and then anything left goes to the other two.

yet as of today, we instead tax capital gains at a special lower rate. By taxing cap gains at the same rate as other income, you are effectively eliminating the special treatment given and mandating that the tax be paid proportionately by the first three groups according to how much they get out of the company. While they could still indirectly tax the consumer, at least it will protect the employees.
 
In an ideal world I would agree to no corporate income tax and would prefer some other means of taxation on welathy executives and shareholders. But we don't live in an ideal world. And the government needs the revenue (1-2% of GDP, give or take - not a hige number but we can't really give up any sources of revenue, really). So it's kinda by default a necessity even though it doesn't really make a whole heck of a lot of sense.

But if we eliminate it and then tax cap gains and dividends the same as ordinary income... we could then adjust the top tax rate in my scenario to the point that it covers what would be lost via the current corp tax.
 
I'm all for taxing capital gains and dividends at the same rate as ordinary income!

I have yet to run into anyone on this board that doesn't like the basic structure of my proposed tax code. It has been modified by suggestions of others, but right to left I haven't seen someone say it wouldn't be a vast improvement over the current code. That said, Dung is correct... it would only happen in an ideal world as our politicians would never let it happen. (which means we have to dump their asses)
 
Lets see, who has money but did not personally work hard to get it? It seems more fair to me that the tax burden be placed there instead of on those who are working hard.?
 
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