The Demise of Two Parties

Mott the Hoople

Sweet Jane
Here's an excellent article that describes the predicament today's GOP has. For thirty years now it has been a party that has embraced movement conservatism that has espoused traditionally conservative social views while promoting economic views that are primarily beneficial to those at the very top of the socio-economic ladder. Somewhere down the line they have thus lost their reality check with whom it is they represent. What the GOP is having a hard time admitting to itself isn't that Trump does not represent the GOP establishment or movement conservatism. What Trump does represent, with his rhetoric, is the base of the Republican party. Which is more than you can say about the GOP establishment leaders.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...lican-voter-base-gop-leaders-denial?CMP=fb_us


That's not to give Democrats a break. Establishment leaders of the Democratic party have essentially done the same thing as the GOP, though there is less anger in the Democratic base, it is still there boiling under the surface. Democratic leaders have sipped the mothers milk of politics and liked it. They have created a coalition of socially conscience wealthy elites that have largely provided lip service to the needs of their party's base while mostly ignoring them and taking their votes for granted. Thus you've seen the rise of Bernie Sanders who, like Trump is more representative of the Democratic base than Hillary is. To be sure that base is just as "appealingly populist" but instead of racist, sexist and xenophobic, they are entitled, self-centered and dismissive. They are angry too if not to the degree of the GOP base.

That should give Democratic partisans pause to think. If you think the current GOP circus train has been funny as hell and their presumptive nominee a joke. Well take a good long hard look cause that's where the Democrats are going to be in a another election cycle or two if the Dems don't start substantively addressing the needs of their parties base. The Democratic party elites are just as guilty of looking down on their base and taking their votes for granted as the GOP is.
 
the republican party for years has used fear mongering, fanciful notions like not raising our debt ceiling and defaulting, and all types of other crackpot stuff, and then they get donald trump and are like whaaaaaaat

I don't even understand the republicans that don't like trump. To me it seems like exactly what they have always asked for. He is their creation.
 
The two halves of The Party are in exactly the same boat.
The Establishment is freaking out as they have lost control and the big bucks they served are quite upset that the money they've spent over the years has come to naught.
Gotta love it.
America may just become America again. That us to say, great.
 
This is the end of the fifth party system. The "red states" and the "blue states" in the 2016 election aren't going to look anything like the pattern they locked themselves into during the Bush and Obama years, the mere presence of Trump (who appeals to an entirely different set of voters) is going to change everything.
 
the republican party for years has used fear mongering, fanciful notions like not raising our debt ceiling and defaulting, and all types of other crackpot stuff, and then they get donald trump and are like whaaaaaaat

I don't even understand the republicans that don't like trump. To me it seems like exactly what they have always asked for. He is their creation.
Wish I could give you more thanks than one. You couldn't be more right. They GOP establishment can't bitch as you're right. Trump is there creation. They're just pissed cause they don't own him.
 
This is the end of the fifth party system. The "red states" and the "blue states" in the 2016 election aren't going to look anything like the pattern they locked themselves into during the Bush and Obama years, the mere presence of Trump (who appeals to an entirely different set of voters) is going to change everything.
when Texas and Georgia flip I might believe that sort of a major change in demographics. For sure we're witnessing a big shift in political alignments. The pro business/redneck GOP coalition is falling apart.
 
the republican party for years has used fear mongering, fanciful notions like not raising our debt ceiling and defaulting, and all types of other crackpot stuff, and then they get donald trump and are like whaaaaaaat

I don't even understand the republicans that don't like trump. To me it seems like exactly what they have always asked for. He is their creation.

Are you saying that I secretly want protectionism, higher taxes, massive new spending programs, support for abortion and transgendered access to the wrong bathrooms, and an uninformed approach to the Middle East (given the last two uninformed approaches)?

I mean, the two issues that the GOP has presently lied to itself about, which I will give you, are immigration policy and the federal budget. While these aren't small matters, I would say it's been fairly consistent in its stance on other issues.
 
Also, my personal problem with Trump isn't just that he is a leftist running on a populist campaign (given that both are historically anathema to the GOP). If Lincoln Chafee and Susan Collins were the ticket, I would have little problem getting on board. My problem with Trump is largely with the man himself - I hate that he himself has no morals, is a grotesque caricature, openly lies with the expectation of being excused, has an entire track record of unethical business practices, and so forth. Worst of all, I have to guess whether I will have another Mussolini on my hands if he becomes president. No matter how tame he turns out to be, there is no scenario where he is revealed as a decent man, because decent men do not play this game of deception when seeking political power.
 
Are you saying that I secretly want protectionism, higher taxes, massive new spending programs, support for abortion and transgendered access to the wrong bathrooms, and an uninformed approach to the Middle East (given the last two uninformed approaches)?

I mean, the two issues that the GOP has presently lied to itself about, which I will give you, are immigration policy and the federal budget. While these aren't small matters, I would say it's been fairly consistent in its stance on other issues.
No he's saying the GOP have used rhetoric for years now designed to exploit the lesser Devils of our nature and its come back to bite them in the ass. The chickens have come home to roost. For years they have used scape goating and fear mongering to advance their agend. Now instead of hired mouth pieces like Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage, et-el, to do their dirty work an actual office seeker has actually had the balls to cross that line and do it for the highest office in the land.

The Democrats do the same shit by demonizing the capitalist class and those chickens will probably come home to roost too.

The bottom line is that until the politicians begin to address those people's needs with a more equatable distribution of our productive prosperity you'll be seeing a lot more of this shit.
 
Also, my personal problem with Trump isn't just that he is a leftist running on a populist campaign (given that both are historically anathema to the GOP). If Lincoln Chafee and Susan Collins were the ticket, I would have little problem getting on board. My problem with Trump is largely with the man himself - I hate that he himself has no morals, is a grotesque caricature, openly lies with the expectation of being excused, has an entire track record of unethical business practices, and so forth. Worst of all, I have to guess whether I will have another Mussolini on my hands if he becomes president. No matter how tame he turns out to be, there is no scenario where he is revealed as a decent man, because decent men do not play this game of deception when seeking political power.
youre missing Grinds point. Who do you think set up the conditions that permitted the rise of a demagogue like Trump? The moderates in the GOP are just as culpable for not taking a principled stand to oppose what has been going on for years now.

I took my stand by leaving the party a dozen years ago.
 
I guess I should ask the question, what exactly has happened that people are upset about? I mean, people let Obama get elected by not showing up to vote against him. Anyone who didn't vote in 2008 and 2012 that has lost their jobs deserves to be unemployed, and I hope they remain in dire straights. That was equally a cowardly act, the same as the moderates they are denouncing now.
 
I guess I should ask the question, what exactly has happened that people are upset about? I mean, people let Obama get elected by not showing up to vote against him. Anyone who didn't vote in 2008 and 2012 that has lost their jobs deserves to be unemployed, and I hope they remain in dire straights. That was equally a cowardly act, the same as the moderates they are denouncing now.

Easy for a government-employed taker to say. :D

Are you claiming that Obama somehow caused people to lose their jobs?
 
I guess I should ask the question, what exactly has happened that people are upset about? I mean, people let Obama get elected by not showing up to vote against him. Anyone who didn't vote in 2008 and 2012 that has lost their jobs deserves to be unemployed, and I hope they remain in dire straights. That was equally a cowardly act, the same as the moderates they are denouncing now.
That is simply not true both parties have seen significant increases in turnout in the last Presidential elections. We've seen a complete and full economic recovery from the Bush Recession yet all that economic recovery has gone to a minute percentage of the population. Which political party is responsible? They both are.
 
Also, my personal problem with Trump isn't just that he is a leftist running on a populist campaign (given that both are historically anathema to the GOP). If Lincoln Chafee and Susan Collins were the ticket, I would have little problem getting on board. My problem with Trump is largely with the man himself - I hate that he himself has no morals, is a grotesque caricature, openly lies with the expectation of being excused, has an entire track record of unethical business practices, and so forth. Worst of all, I have to guess whether I will have another Mussolini on my hands if he becomes president. No matter how tame he turns out to be, there is no scenario where he is revealed as a decent man, because decent men do not play this game of deception when seeking political power.

He isn't seeking political power, it's no wonder you boys don't get it. He's earned real power something politics rarely do.
But keep thinking your way it just clears the path for him
 
He isn't seeking political power, it's no wonder you boys don't get it. He's earned real power something politics rarely do.
But keep thinking your way it just clears the path for him

I've met some people locally, running for city, county, and statewide offices, who aren't really interested in power. Most people running for president are, however. Douchebag Donald is purely about power, image, and, specifically, the value of his name-brand. You have no evidence to support your faith in him, either from his vulgar campaign or his ethically challenged past.
 
the republican party for years has used fear mongering, fanciful notions like not raising our debt ceiling and defaulting, and all types of other crackpot stuff, and then they get donald trump and are like whaaaaaaat

I don't even understand the republicans that don't like trump. To me it seems like exactly what they have always asked for. He is their creation.

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