Values are not inherent to our nature or derived from logic.

[Hume]

As Nietzsche famously argued, values are not inherent to our nature or derived from logic. Rather, values are cultural. And if this is the case, values can be changed. Nietzsche, of course, wanted to revalue European values in order to privilege a type of “aesthetic greatness,” in contrast with the egalitarian mediocrity he associated with the Enlightenment.

How Two Leftist Scholars Saved Nietzsche’s Archive

In postwar Europe, Friedrich Nietzsche was seen as an intellectual proto-Nazi. A new book explains how two antifascist Italian academics — one of whom was a communist — fought to recover the “real” Nietzsche for the Left.

jacobin.com

 

[Hume]

Although Nietzsche’s case is exemplary, the implications of this controversy go far beyond him. It placed the contradiction between fact and interpretation on the table. Who is to say what a “true version” of any thinker’s work is — who, indeed, is to say what “truth” itself is? Nietzsche, after all, scrupulously criticized the idea that truth exists independent of how it’s interpreted.

For some on the Left, there is a fine line between this sort of critical theory and the sort of right-wing individualism and irrationalism that socialism seeks to overthrow. If there are only interpretations, not facts, then how are we to find firm ground in pointing to injustice?

How Two Leftist Scholars Saved Nietzsche’s Archive

In postwar Europe, Friedrich Nietzsche was seen as an intellectual proto-Nazi. A new book explains how two antifascist Italian academics — one of whom was a communist — fought to recover the “real” Nietzsche for the Left.

jacobin.com

 

[goat]

Although Nietzsche’s case is exemplary, the implications of this controversy go far beyond him. It placed the contradiction between fact and interpretation on the table. Who is to say what a “true version” of any thinker’s work is — who, indeed, is to say what “truth” itself is? Nietzsche, after all, scrupulously criticized the idea that truth exists independent of how it’s interpreted.

For some on the Left, there is a fine line between this sort of critical theory and the sort of right-wing individualism and irrationalism that socialism seeks to overthrow. If there are only interpretations, not facts, then how are we to find firm ground in pointing to injustice?

How Two Leftist Scholars Saved Nietzsche’s Archive

In postwar Europe, Friedrich Nietzsche was seen as an intellectual proto-Nazi. A new book explains how two antifascist Italian academics — one of whom was a communist — fought to recover the “real” Nietzsche for the Left.

jacobin.com

This is why we need to give Nietzsche another look. He was saner than most.

 

[ZenMode]

Some, if not many, of our values have been evolutionarily developed. For example, humans, like many primates, have offspring in very small numbers, therefore we very much value direct involvement in protecting and caring for those offspring when they are unable to take care of themselves.

If himans has children like frogs, we dump high numbers of offspring out of our body and leave them to fend for themselves, our values would be different.

 

[Kafka]

Some, if not many, of our values have been evolutionarily developed. For example, humans, like many primates, have offspring in very small numbers, therefore we very much value direct involvement in protecting and caring for those offspring when they are unable to take care of themselves.

If himans has children like frogs, we dump high numbers of offspring out of our body and leave them to fend for themselves, our values would be different.

I believe this is called K-adaptors and R-adaptors (but I forget, it's been about 40 years since I read any SJ Gould) but good point. There's a poster on here who likes to marvel that "familial connection" is somehow a special moral topic beyond the mere physical. And they fight tooth and nail against any suggestion that morality is something that comes out of a social animal's development and survival advantages.

But this is a great example of that very thing. A purely physical stressor (survival) coupled with a purely biological limitation (limited offspring at any given time) as well as the further biological constraint of a large brain that requires more time to develop to maturity.

So much of morality is so easily explained by the realities of the physical world that it makes me wonder why it is always so attractive to those who want to imbue it with some sort of special metaphysical, mystical import.

 

[Yakuda]

This is why we need to give Nietzsche another look. He was saner than most.

The psychopath had a question regarding injustice in its 2nd post that you didnt address. You don't need to but it's a good question. If everything is relative then how does one legitimately point to injustices that should be corrected?

 

[Yakuda]

Some, if not many, of our values have been evolutionarily developed. For example, humans, like many primates, have offspring in very small numbers, therefore we very much value direct involvement in protecting and caring for those offspring when they are unable to take care of themselves.

If himans has children like frogs, we dump high numbers of offspring out of our body and leave them to fend for themselves, our values would be different.

But if submit that millions of humans dont value direct involvement in protecting and caring for those offspring. They may not dump their offspring in large numbers to fend for themselves but abortion has removed the need to value said protecting and caring for thise offspring. And I further submit our values have changed dramatically as a result.

 

[Kafka]

But if submit that millions of humans dont value direct involvement in protecting and caring for those offspring.

The vast, vast, vast majority do. And not just human.

They may not dump their offspring in large numbers to fend for themselves but abortion has removed the need to value said protecting and caring for thise offspring.

Not really. You seem to think there are people out there who want to get pregnant so they can have an abortion. Or some diseased thinking that makes you think people want to do abortions.

I'm pro-choice but if I were a woman facing that decision I might not necessarily want to do an abortion. It's a choice for the woman to make. Because, no matter how mad it makes you, her body is still hers and not yours.

So this stupidity that "abortion" somehow means we on the Pro-Choice side want to just murder children is ignorant on its face.

At least TRY to see the other side. I can see your side. I honestly can. I understand that some people feel abortion is murder and as such their position makes sense to me.

But don't hyperextend the metaphor to make it sound like those who don't see it the same way are somehow actively seeking more abortions in the world.

Personally my solution to abortion...if you REALLY want to slow it down or stop it....is to increase the social safety net. HELP. Don't just stand on a sidewalk and attack women in pain.

Or do as you did, I believe it was you, who adopted. That's cool too!

But don't paint the opposing side as somehow slavering murderous monsters who seek only to murder more children. That's not helpful.

And I further submit our values have changed dramatically as a result.

Yes, morality changes. We used to be a group of people who felt it was OK to tell some people the way they were born is an abomination before the creator of the universe. Now we accept them as fully human and not evil. We used to be a group of people who killed adulterers. Now we elect them to the office of POTUS.

 

[Yakuda]

The vast, vast, vast majority do. And not just human.



Not really. You seem to think there are people out there who want to get pregnant so they can have an abortion. Or some diseased thinking that makes you think people want to do abortions.

I'm pro-choice but if I were a woman facing that decision I might not necessarily want to do an abortion. It's a choice for the woman to make. Because, no matter how mad it makes you, her body is still hers and not yours.

So this stupidity that "abortion" somehow means we on the Pro-Choice side want to just murder children is ignorant on its face.

At least TRY to see the other side. I can see your side. I honestly can. I understand that some people feel abortion is murder and as such their position makes sense to me.

But don't hyperextend the metaphor to make it sound like those who don't see it the same way are somehow actively seeking more abortions in the world.

Personally my solution to abortion...if you REALLY want to slow it down or stop it....is to increase the social safety net. HELP. Don't just stand on a sidewalk and attack women in pain.

Or do as you did, I believe it was you, who adopted. That's cool too!

But don't paint the opposing side as somehow slavering murderous monsters who seek only to murder more children. That's not helpful.



Yes, morality changes. We used to be a group of people who felt it was OK to tell some people the way they were born is an abomination before the creator of the universe. Now we accept them as fully human and not evil. We used to be a group of people who killed adulterers. Now we elect them to the office of POTUS.

You people always get pissed when you're called out for killing babies.

 

[Kafka]

You people always get pissed when you're called out for killing babies.

Funny. You didn't even read my post. I was actually complimentary of you. But you were too busy screaming your insanity

 

[ZenMode]

But if submit that millions of humans dont value direct involvement in protecting and caring for those offspring. They may not dump their offspring in large numbers to fend for themselves but abortion has removed the need to value said protecting and caring for thise offspring. And I further submit our values have changed dramatically as a result.

Other factors may come into play, particularly as far as people wanting to have offspring, but the inclination to take care of them, once born, certainly has to evolutionary roots for mammals.

 

[Cypress]

Rather, values are cultural.

I believe some things are objectively wrong. They are not subject to popular vote, opinion, or social consensus.

Ritual child sacrifice, slavery, the Hindu practice of Sati, African female genital mutilation are cultural values.

But they were wrong, are wrong, and always will be wrong. I am not willing to stake my conscience on the hill of cultural relativism.

 

[Uncensored2008]

As Nietzsche famously argued, values are not inherent to our nature or derived from logic. Rather, values are cultural. And if this is the case, values can be changed. Nietzsche, of course, wanted to revalue European values in order to privilege a type of “aesthetic greatness,” in contrast with the egalitarian mediocrity he associated with the Enlightenment.

How Two Leftist Scholars Saved Nietzsche’s Archive

In postwar Europe, Friedrich Nietzsche was seen as an intellectual proto-Nazi. A new book explains how two antifascist Italian academics — one of whom was a communist — fought to recover the “real” Nietzsche for the Left.

jacobin.com

The ideas of Nietzsche lead directly to Hitler.

No surprise at all that you're a fan.

 

[Uncensored2008]

The vast, vast, vast majority do. And not just human.

That would defeat the premise of the OP and suggest that some morality at least, is inherent not just in humans, but higher function mammals in general.

Not really. You seem to think there are people out there who want to get pregnant so they can have an abortion. Or some diseased thinking that makes you think people want to do abortions.

Abortion is a multi-billion dollar industry. Killing babies is the product and the Abortion Industrial Complex wants to continue expanding.

You for instance, have made it very clear that you want as many abortions performed as possible.

I'm pro-choice but if I were a woman facing that decision I might not necessarily want to do an abortion. It's a choice for the woman to make. Because, no matter how mad it makes you, her body is still hers and not yours.

It's not her body, it's the body of her offspring.

So this stupidity that "abortion" somehow means we on the Pro-Choice side want to just murder children is ignorant on its face.

You're not "pro-choice," you don't support choice in where to send a child to school or a plethora of other issues. You are pro-abortion. You support abortion on demand with no restrictions. You simply attempt to disguise your position because even you recognize the repulsive nature of those positions.

At least TRY to see the other side. I can see your side. I honestly can. I understand that some people feel abortion is murder and as such their position makes sense to me.

You don't even know what the other side is.

What is my position, for instance? You've argued, you've claimed I base it on religion - yet can't seem to say what religion I am. But you have no idea what my position is.

 

[Kafka]

That would defeat the premise of the OP and suggest that some morality at least, is inherent not just in humans, but higher function mammals in general.

Any social animal that produces limited offspring which they then invest into raising. Yes, agreed. It can be expected to arise naturally.

Abortion is a multi-billion dollar industry. Killing babies is the product and the Abortion Industrial Complex wants to continue expanding.

That's utter bullshit. If you don't know it then you are lost.

You for instance, have made it very clear that you want as many abortions performed as possible.

I detest people like you. You are either unable to speak truth or you are unable to read. One or the other.

It's not her body, it's the body of her offspring.

What do you mean by "her" offspring? You mean they came out of her? And they were part of her? Huh. I wonder if she should have any say in how her body is used.

You're not "pro-choice," you don't support choice in where to send a child to school or a plethora of other issues.

Don't equate the two. That's stupid and facile.

You are pro-abortion.

And you are pro-lie. You seem to lie like you breathe.

You support abortion on demand with no restrictions.

More lies. But don't stop now! Keep on lyin'!

You simply attempt to disguise your position because even you recognize the repulsive nature of those positions.

So you have inferred I am "pro-abortion" because I said I'm not pro-abortion? You are really smart. I suspect you must be a janitor in a really nice school.

You don't even know what the other side is.

Shove it, Cletus. You are a moron.

What is my position, for instance?

Well, you like to LIE so it is hard to tell what your position is but I bet it involves lying.

You've argued, you've claimed I base it on religion - yet can't seem to say what religion I am.

What is your reason for being against choice on how women use their bodies? I'm open to hearing your reasons.

But you have no idea what my position is.

Your position is 100% Lying Sack of Shit.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Any social animal that produces limited offspring which they then invest into raising. Yes, agreed. It can be expected to arise naturally.

Except Communists who seek to kill as many of our offspring.

That's utter bullshit. If you don't know it then you are lost.

Are you REALLY trying to lie that Abortion is not a billion dollar a year industry? I suspect you have stock in abortion mills.

I detest people like you. You are either unable to speak truth or you are unable to read. One or the other.

You detest those who call you out on what you are, instead of playing the game that you are anything other than a ghoul. I suspect you personally profit from abortion. No one is as rabid of an abortion promoter as you without a fiduciary incentive.

What do you mean by "her" offspring? You mean they came out of her? And they were part of her? Huh. I wonder if she should have any say in how her body is used.

That you don't know what "offspring" means is a testament to your lack of education.

Don't equate the two. That's stupid and facile.

You lie about being "pro-choice," you are pro-abortion - period.

And you are pro-lie. You seem to lie like you breathe.

Oh fuck you - you can't support your position - you've been exposed as what you are - a ghoul.

More lies. But don't stop now! Keep on lyin'!

The only one lying is you - you are pro-abortion until the 9th month - you've stated it yourself. Did you forget?

So you have inferred I am "pro-abortion" because I said I'm not pro-abortion? You are really smart. I suspect you must be a janitor in a really nice school.

I've inferred nothing - you've flat out started your support for unlimited abortion on demand on many occasions.

Shove it, Cletus. You are a moron.

You can't support your position.

I understand - you are reprehensible and what you support is indefensible.

Well, you like to LIE so it is hard to tell what your position is but I bet it involves lying.

I never lie - it's pathetic that you can't support your disgusting position.

What is your reason for being against choice on how women use their bodies? I'm open to hearing your reasons.

LOL

Lie some more.

I oppose abortion past the point of heart and brain activity for the reason I oppose and taking of human life absent judicial review - it's contrary to a civilized society.

Your position is 100% Lying Sack of Shit.

You are a pathetic fool who cannot support his disgusting position.

 

[Litmus]

As Nietzsche famously argued, values are not inherent to our nature or derived from logic. Rather, values are cultural. And if this is the case, values can be changed. Nietzsche, of course, wanted to revalue European values in order to privilege a type of “aesthetic greatness,” in contrast with the egalitarian mediocrity he associated with the Enlightenment.

How Two Leftist Scholars Saved Nietzsche’s Archive

In postwar Europe, Friedrich Nietzsche was seen as an intellectual proto-Nazi. A new book explains how two antifascist Italian academics — one of whom was a communist — fought to recover the “real” Nietzsche for the Left.

jacobin.com

nope.

they're derived from trial and error, having to survive and the very nature of our beings.

just like the large language model of A.I. will never simulate life.

it's based on word probabilities not how living beings actually learn.

 

[Litmus]

More intelligent beings can develop pro social behavior and relatively high trust between individuals, benefitting each and all.

And of course families and parental care are a huge benefit.

Morality works.

 

[Kafka]

Except Communists who seek to kill as many of our offspring.



Are you REALLY trying to lie that Abortion is not a billion dollar a year industry? I suspect you have stock in abortion mills.



You detest those who call you out on what you are, instead of playing the game that you are anything other than a ghoul. I suspect you personally profit from abortion. No one is as rabid of an abortion promoter as you without a fiduciary incentive.



That you don't know what "offspring" means is a testament to your lack of education.



You lie about being "pro-choice," you are pro-abortion - period.


Oh fuck you - you can't support your position - you've been exposed as what you are - a ghoul.



The only one lying is you - you are pro-abortion until the 9th month - you've stated it yourself. Did you forget?



I've inferred nothing - you've flat out started your support for unlimited abortion on demand on many occasions.



You can't support your position.

I understand - you are reprehensible and what you support is indefensible.



I never lie - it's pathetic that you can't support your disgusting position.



LOL

Lie some more.

I oppose abortion past the point of heart and brain activity for the reason I oppose and taking of human life absent judicial review - it's contrary to a civilized society.



You are a pathetic fool who cannot support his disgusting position.

You're lost.

 

[Phantasmal]

More intelligent beings can develop pro social behavior and relatively high trust between individuals, benefitting each and all.

And of course families and parental care are a huge benefit.

Morality works.

So, what happened to you? Mommy didn’t cuddle you enough?