We no longer discuss policy, but rather the quality of people.

A

Amadeus

Verified User
Just thinking out loud.

When I first started on these types of forums and discussion groups (waaaaay back during the Iraq War era), the focus was on issues and not people. There was a certain level of sophistication and debating quality. Sometimes it de-evolved into mud-throwing, but most of the time the discussions were about very important issues and policy feuds, rather than the quality of people. I currently see Trump supporters as being despicable people. Racists and worse. Just being honest here. Whether they are or they are not is not even relevant.

Bottom line is that Trump has made politics about the quality of people, rather than the issues. Liberals and progressives think Trump supporters are gutter trash, Trump supporters think we are gutter trash.

If you support Trump, you basically have to support him all the way. If you dislike Trump, you have to go all the way. There is no middle ground.

No solutions offered in this post.
 
Bottom line is that Trump has made politics about the quality of people, rather than the issues.
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who brought out the baskets of Deplorables?

I currently see Trump supporters are being despicable people. Racists and worse. Just being honest here.
Whether they are or they are not is not even relevant.
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only your warped perspective matters without any search for truth
 
I'd like to know what agendas are different within the "different" groups on the right? Example, what is the different agenda between a conservative and a neocon? A libertarian and a republican. Seems to me, they all have the same basic agenda. What is the policy and agenda difference from the white supremacist and a conservative?
 
A couple of thoughts.

1) the more familiar we are with people (some of us have been here for years) it seems easier to discuss the person than ideas

2) it's much easier to discuss the horse race of politics, issues like race and why did you vote for X, why did you vote for Y.


I'm sure politicians love knowing people fight like on this board. The desire to win generally overtakes holding them responsible once in office.

Talking about issues isn't as sexy or fun as yelling back and forth at each other
 
TTQ64 said:
I'd like to know what agendas are different within the "different" groups on the right? Example, what is the different agenda between a conservative and a neocon? A libertarian and a republican. Seems to me, they all have the same basic agenda. What is the policy and agenda difference from the white supremacist and a conservative?
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The difference between a neo-conservative and a neo-liberal is the difference between George H.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan, respectively. There are extremes on every spectrum (Cheney probably being the extreme on the neocon side, and someone like Arthur Laffer being on the extreme neo-liberal side). In diametric contrast to neo-conservativism is libertarianism. Then there's social and cultural conservatism, which are closely aligned with religious conservatism.

The union of Bush and Reagan, with the social-religious backing of Jerry Falwell, formed the core of Republican ideology and base post-Nixon until about 2008, when the exceedingly-small libertarian wing gained prominence with the Tea Party in opposition to Obama. I think most on both sides would roughly agree with everything I've said to this point.

I do believe that the pillars of traditional conservatism have been knocked down with Trump, and I no longer understand what it means to be conservative.
 
Amadeus said:
The difference between a neo-conservative and a neo-liberal is the difference between George H.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan, respectively. There are extremes on every spectrum (Cheney probably being the extreme on the neocon side, and someone like Arthur Laffer being on the extreme neo-liberal side). In diametric contrast to neo-conservativism is libertarianism. Then there's social and cultural conservatism, which are closely aligned with religious conservatism.

The union of Bush and Reagan, with the social-religious backing of Jerry Falwell, formed the core of Republican ideology and base post-Nixon until about 2008, when the exceedingly-small libertarian wing gained prominence with the Tea Party in opposition to Obama. I think most on both sides would roughly agree with everything I've said to this point.

I do believe that the pillars of traditional conservatism have been knocked down with Trump, and I no longer understand what it means to be conservative.
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When it comes to voting for legislation, do they all vote for the same agenda?

Seems to me they all vote for right wing ideology.
 
TTQ64 said:
When it comes to voting for legislation, do they all vote for the same agenda?

Seems to me they all vote for right wing ideology.
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Most Republicans will vote for deregulation and tax cuts. And most genuinely believe that this will assist the economy. I disagree, but that's a valid policy debate.

The strongest pillars of the traditional conservationism are tax cuts/de-regulation, national security, pro-life and a degree of resistance to LGBT.

Neo-conservatives do not emphasize or harp on social issues, and until like 2012, Dick Cheney was more progressive on LGBT issues than Obama or Hillary (at least publicly).

The rise of the Alt Right (very aptly named) is basically a pivot towards an alternative brand of conservatism, which emphasizes cultural conservationism.
 
Amadeus said:
Most Republicans will vote for deregulation and tax cuts. And most genuinely believe that this will assist the economy. I disagree, but that's a valid policy debate.

The strongest pillars of the traditional conservationism are tax cuts/de-regulation, national security, pro-life and a degree of resistance to LGBT.

Neo-conservatives do not emphasize or harp on social issues, and until like 2012, Dick Cheney was more progressive on LGBT issues than Obama or Hillary (at least publicly).

The rise of the Alt Right (very aptly named) is basically a pivot towards an alternative brand of conservatism, which emphasizes cultural conservationism.
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I'd say the alt-right actually rejects conservatism. To them it's about white nationalism. Traditional conservatism was about pro-growth, pro-trade and pro-immigration. That is definitely not what the alt-right supports with their protectionist and limited immigration desires.
 
Amadeus said:
Most Republicans will vote for deregulation and tax cuts. And most genuinely believe that this will assist the economy. I disagree, but that's a valid policy debate.

The strongest pillars of the traditional conservationism are tax cuts/de-regulation, national security, pro-life and a degree of resistance to LGBT.

Neo-conservatives do not emphasize or harp on social issues, and until like 2012, Dick Cheney was more progressive on LGBT issues than Obama or Hillary (at least publicly).

The rise of the Alt Right (very aptly named) is basically a pivot towards an alternative brand of conservatism, which emphasizes cultural conservationism.
Click to expand...

They all vote for right wing ideology in my book.

Tax cuts do not work for the good of the economy, but we give into them anyway. It's not a matter of disagreeing, it's a fact.

That's what's wrong with this county.
 
cawacko said:
I'd say the alt-right actually rejects conservatism. To them it's about white nationalism. Traditional conservatism was about pro-growth, pro-trade and pro-immigration. That is definitely not what the alt-right supports with their protectionist and limited immigration desires.
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economic nationalism. it's about us as a nation state competing with other nation states for resources/wealth
 
cawacko said:
I'd say the alt-right actually rejects conservatism. To them it's about white nationalism. Traditional conservatism was about pro-growth, pro-trade and pro-immigration. That is definitely not what the alt-right supports with their protectionist and limited immigration desires.
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They certainly reject the Bush-Reagan brand of conservatism. And yes, you are correct that free trade was a huge part of the formula for conservative growth. Free markets, free trade, anti-protectionism.

In recent years, I've viewed the Republican party much like a balloon that expands and shrinks depending on which part is squeezed. When the neoconservatives were 'squeezed', the libertarian wing greatly expanded. Now that both parts of the balloon are squeezed, the social/cultural conservative wing has expanded to unhealthy proportions.

The same occurs on the Democrat side, but the effects are less exaggerated. The Republicans since Reagan were a loosely held together coalition of often-conflicting ideologies. The Democrats are a bit more unified, they just happen to suck at politics.
 
Amadeus said:
Just thinking out loud.

When I first started on these types of forums and discussion groups (waaaaay back during the Iraq War era), the focus was on issues and not people. There was a certain level of sophistication and debating quality. Sometimes it de-evolved into mud-throwing, but most of the time the discussions were about very important issues and policy feuds, rather than the quality of people. I currently see Trump supporters as being despicable people. Racists and worse. Just being honest here. Whether they are or they are not is not even relevant.

Bottom line is that Trump has made politics about the quality of people, rather than the issues. Liberals and progressives think Trump supporters are gutter trash, Trump supporters think we are gutter trash.

If you support Trump, you basically have to support him all the way. If you dislike Trump, you have to go all the way. There is no middle ground.

No solutions offered in this post.
Click to expand...


This has been a problem looooong before Trump. Today is now where near the insanity of the 1960s.
 
jmotivator said:
This has been a problem looooong before Trump. Today is now where near the insanity of the 1960s.
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I think that ugliness lurks beneath the surface of every human, and that under the right (or wrong) circumstances it can be brought to the surface and exaggerated.

I keep coming back to the Milgram Experiment, which attempted to explain the behavior of Nazi Germany. It was revealed during this experiment that most humans will commit murder or worse under the guidance of an authority figure.

 
i disagree. I have convinced a lot of bernie supporters to support Trump. The key is to challenge their assumptions. I usually start with Dodd-Frank as that is the perfect issue to deconstruct Democrats then move on to other stuff.
 
tsuke said:
i disagree. I have convinced a lot of bernie supporters to support Trump. The key is to challenge their assumptions. I usually start with Dodd-Frank as that is the perfect issue to deconstruct Democrats then move on to other stuff.
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You forgot to say, 'Heil Trump!', the exact same thing the neo-fascists, Nazis and skinheads were yelling in Charleston this weekend. Frankly, I thought you were driving that car.
 
Amadeus said:
Just thinking out loud.

When I first started on these types of forums and discussion groups (waaaaay back during the Iraq War era), the focus was on issues and not people. There was a certain level of sophistication and debating quality. Sometimes it de-evolved into mud-throwing, but most of the time the discussions were about very important issues and policy feuds, rather than the quality of people. I currently see Trump supporters as being despicable people. Racists and worse. Just being honest here. Whether they are or they are not is not even relevant.

Bottom line is that Trump has made politics about the quality of people, rather than the issues. Liberals and progressives think Trump supporters are gutter trash, Trump supporters think we are gutter trash.

If you support Trump, you basically have to support him all the way. If you dislike Trump, you have to go all the way. There is no middle ground.

No solutions offered in this post.
Click to expand...

As a conservative Never Trumper, I view his supporters (those who voted for him in the primaries and who enthusiastically, rather than reluctantly, support him now) as gutter trash, because they are. Obviously, I will continue to have my issues with the left and the DNC. I will occasionally side with Douchebag Donald when he does something I support, or when he isn't acting like a freak show.
 
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