Why 'originalism', as the only method of constitutional interpretation, is misguided

Publius

Well-known member
Alright, we cannot discuss originalism without addressing textualism, so...

Originalism and textualism are legal theories often championed by conservative Supreme Court justices, both advocating for the Constitution to be interpreted according to its 18th-century meaning and the plain text of the document, respectively. While these approaches aim to preserve the Constitution's integrity, they fundamentally misunderstand the Founders’ intentions for a living, adaptable Constitution. Note, this is not to say these methods should be discarded, arbitrarily, either, that is not the point.

Critically, the Constitution does not explicitly grant the power of judicial review to the courts—a power that only became formalized with Marbury v. Madison in 1803. Originalists and textualists might argue that judicial review can be inferred from the Constitution’s structure or implied by the text, but this is not clear-cut. If originalism demands strict adherence to the 18th-century understanding and textualism insists on a literal interpretation of the text, then logically, Marbury itself should be questioned. The decision established a power that is neither explicitly mentioned nor clearly implied by the text. Without Marbury, the Supreme Court would lack the authority to interpret and uphold the Constitution, leaving it like a ship without a captain—rudderless and vulnerable to the whims of competing factions.

The necessity of Marbury is undeniable; it provides the teeth necessary for the judiciary to function effectively. Critically, the Constitution does not explicitly grant the power of judicial review to the courts—a power that only became formalized with Marbury v. Madison in 1803. From this arose the legal doctrine of the 'penumbra' or 'penumbra reasoning/logic,' which allows for the inference of certain rights or powers from the broad structure and principles of the Constitution, even if they are not explicitly mentioned. However, its existence exposes a glaring contradiction in both originalism and textualism: how can theories that prioritize 18th-century understanding or literal textual meaning support a decision that introduced a non-textual power? This contradiction reveals the inherent instability of these theories and their struggle to reconcile with the practical realities of governance.

Moreover, both originalism and textualism often fail to account for the Constitution’s intended flexibility. The Founders, particularly in documents like The Federalist Papers, acknowledged that the Constitution would need to adapt to unforeseen circumstances and evolving societal norms. In The Federalist No. 37, James Madison discusses the challenges of framing a government capable of evolving over time, recognizing the necessity of a system that balances stability with flexibility. Similarly, in The Federalist No. 44, Madison emphasizes the importance of broad language in the Constitution to ensure its enduring applicability: 'Wherever a general power to do a thing is given, every particular power necessary for doing it is included.' This reflects the Founders' understanding that the Constitution must grow with the nation.

Textualism, by focusing solely on the literal meaning of the text, and originalism, by tethering interpretation to a static point in history, both ignore this foresight and risk turning the Constitution into a relic rather than a living framework for governance. Critics of this view might argue that the amendment process provides the necessary flexibility for the Constitution to evolve. This is true to some extent, but in today’s polarized political climate, amendments are nearly impossible to pass, effectively stifling the Constitution’s ability to adapt. What’s needed is not sweeping changes that require amendments but rather nuanced judicial interpretations that consider the broader climate of our era. Such interpretations allow the Constitution to remain relevant without undermining its core principles.

As the renowned law professor Paul Freund noted, 'No judge—no decent judge—will decide a case on the basis of the political temperature of the day, but all judges are influenced by the climate of the era.' This reflects a deeper understanding that while the Constitution’s core values are timeless, their application must reflect contemporary realities to maintain their relevance and justice. Look, I've offered this view in other forums, and the oft reply is 'you can't rule on the constitution with willy nilly interpretations'. Right, of course, but that is NOT what is being suggested here.

Justice Stephen Breyer further illustrates this with his critique of originalism and textualism: '...originalism would limit the kinds of liberty...under the Fourteenth Amendment to those contemplated by men who existed in a time when women were not considered to have a legal identity separate from their husbands.' Breyer’s observation underscores how rigid adherence to these theories can lead to outcomes that are out of step with modern values and societal progress.

For those interested in exploring these ideas further, including discussions on the Founders’ debates and intentions, I recommend this in-depth analysis from The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...-constitution-framers-judicial-review/671334/ If that has a paywall, try incognito mode or the wayback machine or Yahoo reprints, occasionally.

Let's discuss.
 
Alright, we cannot discuss originalism without addressing textualism, so...

Originalism and textualism are legal theories often championed by conservative Supreme Court justices, both advocating for the Constitution to be interpreted according to its 18th-century meaning and the plain text of the document, respectively. While these approaches aim to preserve the Constitution's integrity, they fundamentally misunderstand the Founders’ intentions for a living, adaptable Constitution. Note, this is not to say these methods should be discarded, arbitrarily, either, that is not the point.

Critically, the Constitution does not explicitly grant the power of judicial review to the courts—a power that only became formalized with Marbury v. Madison in 1803. Originalists and textualists might argue that judicial review can be inferred from the Constitution’s structure or implied by the text, but this is not clear-cut. If originalism demands strict adherence to the 18th-century understanding and textualism insists on a literal interpretation of the text, then logically, Marbury itself should be questioned. The decision established a power that is neither explicitly mentioned nor clearly implied by the text. Without Marbury, the Supreme Court would lack the authority to interpret and uphold the Constitution, leaving it like a ship without a captain—rudderless and vulnerable to the whims of competing factions.

The necessity of Marbury is undeniable; it provides the teeth necessary for the judiciary to function effectively. Critically, the Constitution does not explicitly grant the power of judicial review to the courts—a power that only became formalized with Marbury v. Madison in 1803. From this arose the legal doctrine of the 'penumbra' or 'penumbra reasoning/logic,' which allows for the inference of certain rights or powers from the broad structure and principles of the Constitution, even if they are not explicitly mentioned. However, its existence exposes a glaring contradiction in both originalism and textualism: how can theories that prioritize 18th-century understanding or literal textual meaning support a decision that introduced a non-textual power? This contradiction reveals the inherent instability of these theories and their struggle to reconcile with the practical realities of governance.

Moreover, both originalism and textualism often fail to account for the Constitution’s intended flexibility. The Founders, particularly in documents like The Federalist Papers, acknowledged that the Constitution would need to adapt to unforeseen circumstances and evolving societal norms. In The Federalist No. 37, James Madison discusses the challenges of framing a government capable of evolving over time, recognizing the necessity of a system that balances stability with flexibility. Similarly, in The Federalist No. 44, Madison emphasizes the importance of broad language in the Constitution to ensure its enduring applicability: 'Wherever a general power to do a thing is given, every particular power necessary for doing it is included.' This reflects the Founders' understanding that the Constitution must grow with the nation.

Textualism, by focusing solely on the literal meaning of the text, and originalism, by tethering interpretation to a static point in history, both ignore this foresight and risk turning the Constitution into a relic rather than a living framework for governance. Critics of this view might argue that the amendment process provides the necessary flexibility for the Constitution to evolve. This is true to some extent, but in today’s polarized political climate, amendments are nearly impossible to pass, effectively stifling the Constitution’s ability to adapt. What’s needed is not sweeping changes that require amendments but rather nuanced judicial interpretations that consider the broader climate of our era. Such interpretations allow the Constitution to remain relevant without undermining its core principles.

As the renowned law professor Paul Freund noted, 'No judge—no decent judge—will decide a case on the basis of the political temperature of the day, but all judges are influenced by the climate of the era.' This reflects a deeper understanding that while the Constitution’s core values are timeless, their application must reflect contemporary realities to maintain their relevance and justice. Look, I've offered this view in other forums, and the oft reply is 'you can't rule on the constitution with willy nilly interpretations'. Right, of course, but that is NOT what is being suggested here.

Justice Stephen Breyer further illustrates this with his critique of originalism and textualism: '...originalism would limit the kinds of liberty...under the Fourteenth Amendment to those contemplated by men who existed in a time when women were not considered to have a legal identity separate from their husbands.' Breyer’s observation underscores how rigid adherence to these theories can lead to outcomes that are out of step with modern values and societal progress.

For those interested in exploring these ideas further, including discussions on the Founders’ debates and intentions, I recommend this in-depth analysis from The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...-constitution-framers-judicial-review/671334/ If that has a paywall, try incognito mode or the wayback machine or Yahoo reprints, occasionally.

Let's discuss.
What we end up with instead is finding "rights" in the constitution to kill babies and expanding the size of the federal govt so that it becomes so bloated and powerful and all in the pursuit of the "common good".
 
marbury v. madison was necessary to resolve a difference between the branches. It's been bastardized and weaponized against the owners of the Constitution, namely we the people, by removing the power of the people to decide what is and isn't constitutional.

There is nothing wrong with originalism, as it keeps the federal governments power limited and restricted, just like the founders wanted. The notion that the Constitution, a legal document, should be fluid and adaptable to/for change is idiocy. The Constitution is ours, we the people, and only we the people can change it via the legally prescribed method outlined in that Constitution.
 
marbury v. madison was necessary to resolve a difference between the branches. It's been bastardized and weaponized against the owners of the Constitution, namely we the people, by removing the power of the people to decide what is and isn't constitutional.

There is nothing wrong with originalism, as it keeps the federal governments power limited and restricted, just like the founders wanted. The notion that the Constitution, a legal document, should be fluid and adaptable to/for change is idiocy. The Constitution is ours, we the people, and only we the people can change it via the legally prescribed method outlined in that Constitution.
Leftists want a bigger federal govt.
 
What we end up with instead is finding "rights" in the constitution to kill babies and expanding the size of the federal govt so that it becomes so bloated and powerful and all in the pursuit of the "common good".

Well, it's not small government that violates a woman's bodily autonomy, it's big government, so your logic fails.
 
marbury v. madison was necessary to resolve a difference between the branches. It's been bastardized and weaponized against the owners of the Constitution, namely we the people, by removing the power of the people to decide what is and isn't constitutional.

There is nothing wrong with originalism, as it keeps the federal governments power limited and restricted, just like the founders wanted.
Well, I never meant that it should be disregarded, but it shouldn't be the 'north star' of a justices judicial philosophy, in my view. I'm in the Justice Breyer pragmatist school.
The notion that the Constitution, a legal document, should be fluid and adaptable to/for change is idiocy.
Well, that's not what we are told my Mssrs Hamilton, Jay, and Madison.
The Constitution is ours, we the people, and only we the people can change it via the legally prescribed method outlined in that Constitution.
You raise important points about the role of Marbury v. Madison and the importance of limiting federal power as originally intended by the Founders. However, I would like to offer a few counterpoints for consideration.

First, while Marbury v. Madison did indeed resolve a critical conflict between branches of government, it also established the principle of judicial review, which has been essential in maintaining the balance of power among the branches and ensuring that laws align with constitutional principles. This mechanism has served as a safeguard against potential overreach by any branch of government, including the legislature, which could, without judicial review, enact laws that might infringe upon individual rights or undermine the Constitution's core values.

Regarding originalism, while it’s true that the Founders sought to limit federal power, they also recognized that the Constitution would need to endure over time. As James Madison noted in The Federalist No. 37 and No. 44, the Constitution was crafted with broad language to allow for necessary flexibility. The Founders understood that the nation would face unforeseen challenges that might require interpretation beyond the literal text of the 18th century. This is where the idea of a "living Constitution" comes into play—not as a means to bypass the amendment process, but to allow for judicial interpretation that can adapt to changing societal needs while still respecting the document's original intent.

The amendment process, as you rightly point out, is the prescribed method for making significant changes to the Constitution. However, the rigidity of this process, particularly in today’s polarized political climate, means that some necessary adaptations—those that are more interpretative than structural—might not realistically be addressed through amendments alone. This is where judicial interpretation becomes crucial, ensuring that the Constitution remains relevant and applicable in a modern context without compromising its foundational principles.

Finally, it's worth noting that the concept of "we the people" is central to both the Constitution and its interpretation. The judiciary, as an independent branch, serves to protect the rights of the people by interpreting laws in light of the Constitution, especially when there are disagreements about what the Constitution allows. In this way, judicial review does not remove power from the people but rather helps to ensure that government actions remain true to the Constitution’s ideals.

And so, while originalism plays a valuable role in preserving the Constitution’s intent, it must be balanced with the recognition that the Constitution was also designed to be a living document, capable of guiding a nation through changing times and challenges. Judicial interpretation, including Marbury v. Madison, has been a necessary tool in maintaining that balance.

In my view, a static document is a dead document, because it cannot accommodate a dynamic, slowly evolving, society. The Constitution was intended to be subject to modern interpretation given the broad language that was used, not to mention the commentary we have to this point in the Federalist Papers.
 
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A baby isnt a womans body.

What you are referring to is a fetus before viability and whether or not that fetus has achieved 'personhood'.

That's a philosophical point that can only be ruled on by judicial decree, and the SCOTUS won't touch the subject.

Until then, what's in a body falls under the concept of the right of bodily autonomy and therefore your point is moot.
 
Figures you would get a run of dumb replies. To your knowledge, has the Court addressed in a serious way the inherent problem you mentioned relating to Marbury?
 
What you are referring to is a fetus before viability and whether or not that fetus has achieved 'personhood'.

That's a philosophical point that can only be ruled on by judicial decree, and the SCOTUS won't touch the subject.

Until then, what's in a body falls under the concept of the right of bodily autonomy and therefore your point is moot.
What does the word "fetus" mean? Not what is it but what does the word mean. Where does "personhood" appear in the constitution or anywhere in the founding documents?

No it's not moot. A baby isn't a woman's so repeating that is trying to control the narrative with a lie. The baby is in her body and if she want to evict that baby then fine but let's be clear that she is killing a human being. Just be honest but you people can't be..
 
What you are referring to is a fetus before viability and whether or not that fetus has achieved 'personhood'.

That's a philosophical point that can only be ruled on by judicial decree, and the SCOTUS won't touch the subject.

Until then, what's in a body falls under the concept of the right of bodily autonomy and therefore your point is moot.
this is incorrect. there are several reasons/facts why you're incorrect, but first and foremost is the ONLY right to bodily autonomy regarding pregnancy begins and ends with the consent to sexual activity.
 
Well, it's not small government that violates a woman's bodily autonomy, it's big government, so your logic fails.
On that issue, it is the failure of those pushing for federal laws on abortion when it is clearly not an interstate or federal issue. It is one of state's rights. Education is another similar issue. The federal government has ZERO business making rules about education. Marriage has some validity as married couples can obviously move between states and if the rules were different from one to the next, that would cause problems.

What the Left does today is turn everything and anything into a federal issue. One-size-fits-all is their way. They, like the petulant children they are, want it their way with no exceptions. If they fail to get their way, they throw a tantrum.
 
Figures you would get a run of dumb replies. To your knowledge, has the Court addressed in a serious way the inherent problem you mentioned relating to Marbury?

A number of court cases, I believe which has given rise to the legal doctrine of the penumbra. Roe v Wade is one, Griswold, another, and there are others, such as Obergefell v. Hodges.
 
What does the word "fetus" mean? Not what is it but what does the word mean. Where does "personhood" appear in the constitution or anywhere in the founding documents?

No it's not moot. A baby isn't a woman's so repeating that is trying to control the narrative with a lie. The baby is in her body and if she want to evict that baby then fine but let's be clear that she is killing a human being. Just be honest but you people can't be..

Newsflash: not everything SCOTUS rules on is mentioned in the constitution.

You're point is a sentiment, not a fact. If it were fact, SCOTUS would be unanimous and rule on it, and they won't even touch the subject.

Here's what you don't get:

First off, I used to be against abortion, back in my conservative years, but as I explored the subject more deeply, I realized that banning abortion, like prohibition, is a cure that causes greater chaos than it's designed to solve. The price is too high to implement it.

Now then,,,,,,

Who owns one's body? Either YOU own your body, or the state owns it.

So, which is it?

Now, I find abortion as repugnant as you do, but I believe the right of bodily autonomy supersedes my feelings.

Not only that, many instances where abortion will improve a woman's chances of surviving are being deprived in states that ban abortion, increasing the chances of death for women.

In fact, death and injury rates to women are disproportionately higher in states that ban and/or more restrictive on abortion.


THerefore, by being pro-choice, I believe I am pro life, and you are not.

Not only that, banning abortion is child abuse, where children are raped and forced to carry the baby, it's a life long trauma for the child.

In essence, there is such a thing as a necessary evil. But there is good in it, there is a silver lining in it, which makes it the right thing to do, to support pro choice.

Not to mention that rich people will get abortions anyway, and banning abortion disproportionally affects poor women.

You are on the wrong side of this argument, the vast majority of people are pro choice. It's a woman's right. and republicans took it away.

Don't think the electorate is going to forget it, in November.
 
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Alright, we cannot discuss originalism without addressing textualism, so...

Originalism and textualism are legal theories often championed by conservative Supreme Court justices, both advocating for the Constitution to be interpreted according to its 18th-century meaning and the plain text of the document, respectively. While these approaches aim to preserve the Constitution's integrity, they fundamentally misunderstand the Founders’ intentions for a living, adaptable Constitution. Note, this is not to say these methods should be discarded, arbitrarily, either, that is not the point.

Critically, the Constitution does not explicitly grant the power of judicial review to the courts—a power that only became formalized with Marbury v. Madison in 1803. Originalists and textualists might argue that judicial review can be inferred from the Constitution’s structure or implied by the text, but this is not clear-cut. If originalism demands strict adherence to the 18th-century understanding and textualism insists on a literal interpretation of the text, then logically, Marbury itself should be questioned. The decision established a power that is neither explicitly mentioned nor clearly implied by the text. Without Marbury, the Supreme Court would lack the authority to interpret and uphold the Constitution, leaving it like a ship without a captain—rudderless and vulnerable to the whims of competing factions.

The necessity of Marbury is undeniable; it provides the teeth necessary for the judiciary to function effectively. Critically, the Constitution does not explicitly grant the power of judicial review to the courts—a power that only became formalized with Marbury v. Madison in 1803. From this arose the legal doctrine of the 'penumbra' or 'penumbra reasoning/logic,' which allows for the inference of certain rights or powers from the broad structure and principles of the Constitution, even if they are not explicitly mentioned. However, its existence exposes a glaring contradiction in both originalism and textualism: how can theories that prioritize 18th-century understanding or literal textual meaning support a decision that introduced a non-textual power? This contradiction reveals the inherent instability of these theories and their struggle to reconcile with the practical realities of governance.

Moreover, both originalism and textualism often fail to account for the Constitution’s intended flexibility. The Founders, particularly in documents like The Federalist Papers, acknowledged that the Constitution would need to adapt to unforeseen circumstances and evolving societal norms. In The Federalist No. 37, James Madison discusses the challenges of framing a government capable of evolving over time, recognizing the necessity of a system that balances stability with flexibility. Similarly, in The Federalist No. 44, Madison emphasizes the importance of broad language in the Constitution to ensure its enduring applicability: 'Wherever a general power to do a thing is given, every particular power necessary for doing it is included.' This reflects the Founders' understanding that the Constitution must grow with the nation.

Textualism, by focusing solely on the literal meaning of the text, and originalism, by tethering interpretation to a static point in history, both ignore this foresight and risk turning the Constitution into a relic rather than a living framework for governance. Critics of this view might argue that the amendment process provides the necessary flexibility for the Constitution to evolve. This is true to some extent, but in today’s polarized political climate, amendments are nearly impossible to pass, effectively stifling the Constitution’s ability to adapt. What’s needed is not sweeping changes that require amendments but rather nuanced judicial interpretations that consider the broader climate of our era. Such interpretations allow the Constitution to remain relevant without undermining its core principles.

As the renowned law professor Paul Freund noted, 'No judge—no decent judge—will decide a case on the basis of the political temperature of the day, but all judges are influenced by the climate of the era.' This reflects a deeper understanding that while the Constitution’s core values are timeless, their application must reflect contemporary realities to maintain their relevance and justice. Look, I've offered this view in other forums, and the oft reply is 'you can't rule on the constitution with willy nilly interpretations'. Right, of course, but that is NOT what is being suggested here.

Justice Stephen Breyer further illustrates this with his critique of originalism and textualism: '...originalism would limit the kinds of liberty...under the Fourteenth Amendment to those contemplated by men who existed in a time when women were not considered to have a legal identity separate from their husbands.' Breyer’s observation underscores how rigid adherence to these theories can lead to outcomes that are out of step with modern values and societal progress.

For those interested in exploring these ideas further, including discussions on the Founders’ debates and intentions, I recommend this in-depth analysis from The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...-constitution-framers-judicial-review/671334/ If that has a paywall, try incognito mode or the wayback machine or Yahoo reprints, occasionally.

Let's discuss.
if you don't like what the constitution says, vote to change it......don't try to reach around it.......
 
this is incorrect. there are several reasons/facts why you're incorrect, but first and foremost is the ONLY right to bodily autonomy regarding pregnancy begins and ends with the consent to sexual activity.

Well, all that matters is the constitution.

And the only upheld constitutional argument that can be remotely applied, is the right to privacy. a constitutional penumbra.

So, your point is irrelevant.

Not only that, not all children are born out of consensual sex. So, if you allow abortions on rape babies, you are inconsistent. If you don't allow it, then your premise is baseless.
 
if you don't like what the constitution says, vote to change it......don't try to reach around it.......

The constitution, in many areas, is broadly worded, subject to interpretation.

Clearly, this was by design, so that reinterpretations over time, would be allowed.

That this is true renders your premise moot.

But, this isn't the point, 'originalism and textualism' are about what our current conservative justices THINKS it says.

So, 'interpretation via judicial philosophy' is an inescapable fact of judicial life on the Supreme Court.
 
On that issue, it is the failure of those pushing for federal laws on abortion when it is clearly not an interstate or federal issue. It is one of state's rights. Education is another similar issue. The federal government has ZERO business making rules about education. Marriage has some validity as married couples can obviously move between states and if the rules were different from one to the next, that would cause problems.

What the Left does today is turn everything and anything into a federal issue. One-size-fits-all is their way. They, like the petulant children they are, want it their way with no exceptions. If they fail to get their way, they throw a tantrum.

The bill of rights has 10 items.
The framers NEVER meant to intend that there were only 10 rights.

They leave it up to the Supreme Court to enlist more, as the times and circumstances give rise to them.

Such was the right to privacy, and it goes on from there.

But, when it comes to fundamental rights, fundamental rights are NEVER a 'state' issue, in my opinion, they are or at least should be a federal issue, meaning 'we the people' of AMERICA.

  • Federalist No. 78 (Judicial Review and Flexibility of the Constitution):

    • Written by Alexander Hamilton, this paper discusses the judiciary's role in interpreting the Constitution. Hamilton argues that the judiciary has the duty to declare void any legislative acts that are contrary to the Constitution. This implies a role for the judiciary in protecting rights that may not be explicitly listed in the Constitution but are consistent with its principles.
    • Hamilton notes that the Constitution is intended to be a lasting document, able to adapt to new circumstances. The judiciary's role includes interpreting the Constitution in light of changing times, which could involve recognizing new rights as fundamental.
  • Federalist No. 84 (The Bill of Rights and Enumeration of Rights):

    • In this essay, Hamilton argues against the need for a Bill of Rights, fearing that enumerating certain rights could imply that other rights do not exist. He suggests that the Constitution itself is a Bill of Rights because it establishes a government with limited powers.
    • The Ninth Amendment, which was later included in the Bill of Rights, reflects this concern. It states that the enumeration of certain rights in the Constitution does not mean that other rights do not exist. This supports the idea that the Framers intended for unenumerated rights, like the right to privacy, to be protected.
  • Federalist No. 10 (Federal vs. State Power and Protection of Individual Rights):

    • James Madison discusses the dangers of factionalism and the need for a large, strong federal government to protect individual rights from being overridden by state interests. While not explicitly about the judiciary, this paper supports the notion that fundamental rights should be protected at the national level, not left to the states.
 
The constitution, in many areas, is broadly worded, subject to interpretation.

Clearly, this was by design, so that reinterpretations over time, would be allowed.
subject to abuse......that is why changing the law through "interpretation" must be rejected.......again, if matter change and you feel the constitution is inadequate then schedule a vote to see if voters agree with you.....don't leave it up to the agenda of a single judge.....
 
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