Jesus and Siddhartha Gautama

[Dutch Uncle]

I think the point of the Gospels was to provide witness to Jesus' ministry, death, and resurrection. I do not think they were intended as biographies of his life in the way modern readers are accustomed to biographical literature

A fair point, but that also leads to the possibility, and truism, that the Gospels were heavily edited posthumously. In fact, the entire earlier part of the life of Jesus could have been fabricated postmortem in order to fit the prophesies. That would explain the 20 year gap too.

 

[Bill]

Sure....


On this site I have always been surprised, in a mostly disappointed kinda way that some of the more prominent self proclaiming hard ass Christian never start threads on the topic, & some almost never started any threads when I arrived, & that is out of several thousand posts..

They're here to defend trump, not their faith, whatever that may mean or be.......

Have a great night!!!

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

As long as it's civil, anyone can voice their own beliefs, but the main topic is how how the philosophy of Jesus compares to Buddhism. It should be obvious to all that the differences between the Old Testament and the New Testament are as different as night and day.

It should be obvious to those who take a look that there are more similarities between the philosophy of Jesus and Buddhism than between the God of Peace, Love and Mercy as presented by Jesus and the God of Wrath as presented in the OT.

Atheists love to mock other religions with "sky daddy" while protecting their own beliefs as "disbelief". That's not the topic here. It's possible to discuss the philosophy of Jesus without divinity. When Christianity started out, there was great debate about whether Jesus was a prophet or divine. It's no secret the Gospels were written several decades after the Crucifixion and that the concept of the Trinity was not finalized until three centuries after the Crucifixion. In those days, aside from the Romans, the biggest killer of Christians were other Christians as their various beliefs evolved and conflicted.

Thanks for the clarification. I know next to nothing about Buddhist beliefs so I'll butt out of that discussion.

As far as religion in general and Christianity in particular, all faiths have borrowed from faiths that they have supplanted. Some have more heavily than others. There has been a lot written regarding the events in Jesus's life that mirror those of the Mithra faith/cult that was prevalent at the roughly the same historical time period. Born of a virgin, resurrected after three days of death, etc. I don't think it's a leap to wonder if the writers of the gospels and other NT books didn't borrow from Buddhism as well.

It's a shame that Kudzu no longer posts. She has vast knowledge of comparative religions and would have really added a lot to this discussion.

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

A fair point, but that also leads to the possibility, and truism, that the Gospels were heavily edited posthumously. In fact, the entire earlier part of the life of Jesus could have been fabricated postmortem in order to fit the prophesies. That would explain the 20 year gap too.

I think you make it too conscious. If Jesus were the Messiah, then, since the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, Jesus must have been, so he was - and etcetera. I doubt that anyone ever knew all that much about Jesus's early life in reality.

 

[Cypress]

A fair point, but that also leads to the possibility, and truism, that the Gospels were heavily edited posthumously. In fact, the entire earlier part of the life of Jesus could have been fabricated postmortem in order to fit the prophesies. That would explain the 20 year gap too.

The historicity of the Gospels are always open to scholarly inquiry.

I believe the expectation that biographical literature should account comprehensively for a person's whole life is a modern conceit of the 19th and 20th centuries. That is not the way people wrote in antiquity. Homer and Virgil only wrote of the great deeds of Achilles, Odysseus, and Aeneas. Not about their whole lives. And the ancient Greeks considered the people and events of the Iliad and Odyssey to be absolutely historical.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Thanks for the clarification. I know next to nothing about Buddhist beliefs so I'll butt out of that discussion.

As far as religion in general and Christianity in particular, all faiths have borrowed from faiths that they have supplanted. Some have more heavily than others. There has been a lot written regarding the events in Jesus's life that mirror those of the Mithra faith/cult that was prevalent at the roughly the same historical time period. Born of a virgin, resurrected after three days of death, etc. I don't think it's a leap to wonder if the writers of the gospels and other NT books didn't borrow from Buddhism as well.

It's a shame that Kudzu no longer posts. She has vast knowledge of comparative religions and would have really added a lot to this discussion.

Studying Buddhist religions can be as messy as studying Protestant religions since there isn’t just one version. The main ones include Theravada, Mahayana, Tibetan and Zen, but there are several variations and distinct differences.

Although all do not recognize a God per se, several believe in an afterlife including reincarnation so they do believe in a spiritual world. Due to this, one perception is that there is a God and it is all of us; that we are all little pieces of God temporarily separated. Other variations, more pure to Siddhartha’s original thoughts, is that we don’t know and can’t know if there is anything beyond mortality. What we can do is choose how we live our lives at the moment and that it is best to live right. Siddhartha defined that as the “Eightfold Path” with guidance on living right, speaking right, acting right, etc: https://www.learnreligions.com/the-eightfold-path-450067

Similarly, while Jesus presented his sermons in a Jewish traditional manner, his guidance also including wisdom on how to live right such as love and trust God, love your neighbor and the Golden Rule.

FWIW, “Buddha” is a title just like “Christ” is a title. “Buddha” means Awakened One” or the "Enlightened One" and refers to a 5th-4th century BC Nepalese prince named Siddhartha Gautama. “Christ” means “anointed” or “messiah” with Jesus titled “the Christ” as in “the Messiah” or “the Anointed One”.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The historicity of the Gospels are always open to scholarly inquiry.

I believe the expectation that biographical literature should account comprehensively for a person's whole life is a modern conceit of the 19th and 20th centuries. That is not the way people wrote in antiquity. Homer and Virgil only wrote of the great deeds of Achilles, Odysseus, and Aeneas. Not about their whole lives. And the ancient Greeks considered the people and events of the Iliad and Odyssey to be absolutely historical.

Agreed people wrote differently in those days, which is why modern people can misunderstand certain concepts or take a certain translation literally instead of understanding a translation can include a lot of opinion or bias on the part of the translator. This, too, also figures into the cultural bias of the translator.

As anyone who has ever playing the game “Telephone” or “Gossip” or has met a fisherman knows, stories change through the retelling. Legends grow. This explains why there are differences between the Gospels on certain identical events such as how many, if any, angels were in Christ’s tomb. IMO, due to the human-induced flaws, to understand Christ requires reading all of the Gospels and trying to understand the general gist of what he was teaching rather than cherry-picking specific quotes to define everything Christ was teaching.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I think you make it too conscious. If Jesus were the Messiah, then, since the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, Jesus must have been, so he was - and etcetera. I doubt that anyone ever knew all that much about Jesus's early life in reality.

While I tend to agree, there is no evidence either way except what has been detailed in the Gospels. Since the authors of the Gospels went to so much trouble to detail the early life of Jesus, whether fabricated, exaggerated or not, it piques my curiosity that there is not a single word about his life between age 12 and 33ish. It appears his ministry began about 3 years before his execution. So what was he doing before then? Just building carts and tables with Joseph? The Christ doing nothing at all when, according to the Bible, he displayed spiritual precociousness at an early age? My question why wasn’t he doing this all of his life? Why did he virtually pop up out of nowhere and begin recruiting his apostles and starting his ministry at about age 30?

As you allude, one reason is because his early life is entirely fabricated and the authors didn’t fabricate his teens and twenties. OTOH, IMHO, there’s also the possibility that he left the region during a majority of that time, say late teens or so for a decade or so until he returned and began his ministry.

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

While I tend to agree, there is no evidence either way except what has been detailed in the Gospels. Since the authors of the Gospels went to so much trouble to detail the early life of Jesus, whether fabricated, exaggerated or not, it piques my curiosity that there is not a single word about his life between age 12 and 33ish. It appears his ministry began about 3 years before his execution. So what was he doing before then? Just building carts and tables with Joseph? The Christ doing nothing at all when, according to the Bible, he displayed spiritual precociousness at an early age? My question why wasn’t he doing this all of his life? Why did he virtually pop up out of nowhere and begin recruiting his apostles and starting his ministry at about age 30?

As you allude, one reason is because his early life is entirely fabricated and the authors didn’t fabricate his teens and twenties. OTOH, IMHO, there’s also the possibility that he left the region during a majority of that time, say late teens or so for a decade or so until he returned and began his ministry.

I don't think I'd put any money on anything stated about Jesus's life before his baptism by John, but I don't think anybody consciously fabricated any of it. People think differently in different societies and religions, and our thinking is very, very unlike theirs, which is why I find all the fundamentalist 'faith'-pretending pretty ludicrous.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't think I'd put any money on anything stated about Jesus's life before his baptism by John, but I don't think anybody consciously fabricated any of it. People think differently in different societies and religions, and our thinking is very, very unlike theirs, which is why I find all the fundamentalist 'faith'-pretending pretty ludicrous.

That would be as fair an assumption as anything else since there is not way to prove it either way.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed people wrote differently in those days, which is why modern people can misunderstand certain concepts or take a certain translation literally instead of understanding a translation can include a lot of opinion or bias on the part of the translator. This, too, also figures into the cultural bias of the translator.

As anyone who has ever playing the game “Telephone” or “Gossip” or has met a fisherman knows, stories change through the retelling. Legends grow. This explains why there are differences between the Gospels on certain identical events such as how many, if any, angels were in Christ’s tomb. IMO, due to the human-induced flaws, to understand Christ requires reading all of the Gospels and trying to understand the general gist of what he was teaching rather than cherry-picking specific quotes to define everything Christ was teaching.

Good insights.

Don't even get me started on the problems induced by multiple attempts at traslation of the New Testament, from the archaic Greek, to Latin, to the verbacular German and Middle English. There is no way that some original nuance, intent, and intangibles were not lost in the transliteration beween languages.

I will give Islam credit for discouraging translation of the Koran from the original Arabic into other languages, thus circumventing any corruption of what is purported to be God's actual words as delivered in Arabic by the archangel Gabriel

 

[Cypress]

Sure....


On this site I have always been surprised, in a mostly disappointed kinda way that some of the more prominent self proclaiming hard ass Christian never start threads on the topic, & some almost never started any threads when I arrived, & that is out of several thousand posts..

They're here to defend trump, not their faith, whatever that may mean or be.......

Have a great night!!!

My message board experience is that interested agnostics frequently know more about Christian history and theology than bible thumping right wing posters who self identify as supposedly devout Christians

 

[Bill]

Good insights.

Don't even get me started on the problems induced by multiple attempts at traslation of the New Testament, from the archaic Greek, to Latin, to the verbacular German and Middle English. There is no way that some original nuance, intent, and intangibles were not lost in the transliteration beween languages.

I will give Islam credit for discouraging translation of the Koran from the original Arabic into other languages, thus circumventing any corruption of what is purported to be God's actual words as delivered in Arabic by the archangel Gabriel

I wonder why Gab told Joseph Smith the American something totally different??

21 And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old aFather Whitmer, in Fayette, Seneca county, and at sundry times, and in divers places through all the travels and tribulations of this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! And the voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of bGabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers cangels, from Michael or dAdam down to the present time, all declaring their edispensation, their rights, their fkeys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, gprecept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hhope!

 

[Bill]

My message board experience is that interested agnostics frequently know more about Christian history and theology than bible thumping right wing posters who self identify as supposedly devout Christians

Mine as well......

I have posted on some Religious boards & Christian boards but not in quite a while.. Most were strongly moderated & the mix of minds (not thoughts) was about the same as any boards I been on..

A long time board friend, he even posted here for brief moment TCat was exactly that.. Never meet anyone more knowledgeable. @ one time he was a Catholic I think, or was raised so but was agnostic & really knew his stuff......

In their defense I have often heard that defending the faith/religion etc is not why they are here but @ the same time hold that their beliefs & values are reflected in their politics.

Be that as it may

 

[TexanManWithPlans]

Jesus and Buddha never existed. They're mythological religious figures. For the first couple of centuries, Christians couldn't even agree on when Jesus lived. Buddhists still debate what century Buddha lived in.

 

[Cypress]

Jesus and Buddha never existed. They're mythological religious figures. For the first couple of centuries, Christians couldn't even agree on when Jesus lived. Buddhists still debate what century Buddha lived in.

The historicity of Jesus is well established, and is supported by multiple independent sources - Christian, Roman, and Jewish - written within a few decades of his execution. That is a renarkable trove of written documentation about someone who was essentially just a peasant by ancient standards.

Siddhartha Gautama is less well established historically since sources which discuss him were not written until several centuries after his presumed death. However, I believe the consensus opinion among religious scholars is that there is a kernel of historicity about the stories of Siddhartha Gautama

 

[Monad Portal]

I dispute that either of them said shit about the greater good. that's a totalitarian overlay. very masony.

 

[Monad Portal]

you goons need to watch a video on mark passio and natural law.

 

[Bill]

Jesus and Buddha never existed. They're mythological religious figures. For the first couple of centuries, Christians couldn't even agree on when Jesus lived. Buddhists still debate what century Buddha lived in.

Do you base that on something??

 

[StoneByStone]

This was originally posted on another thread. Slightly edited from the original.

Although not a Christian myself, at least not a conventional Christian, I was raised as one and my wife is a devout Christian. I strongly support Christian values even though I doubt the divinity of Christ.

There is a lot of commonality between Jesus of Nazareth and Siddhartha Gautama. It would not surprise me if there was eventual proof that the missing years between when Jesus was 12 and 33 were spent in India.

Regardless of religion or spiritual beliefs, people can see the glass as half full or half empty, they can see people as mostly good or mostly bad and they can seek to fly with the good angels or the dark ones, with group with good people or bad.

I forget who, but a Zen master once said (and I paraphrase) "Jesus and Siddhartha are the same except one was the son of a carpenter and the other a son of a king". Both had a religion formed around them even though I strongly doubt that was their intent. Both espoused points of view that emphasized forgiveness, peace and trying to better oneself for the greater good.

Please try to stay on topic. No one is banned from commenting and derails are expected but if someone ignores warnings to stay on topic or keep the conversation civil, they will be asked to leave.

I really don't get this whole "I'm not Christian but I respect Christianity" thing. All religion is stupid, but religions like Christianity and Islam preach that if you don't worship a god that is literally a mass murderer, then you get punished for eternity. These are not religions that produce a healthy mindset.
I don't know if Jesus ever really existed, but if he did, he wasn't a great teacher or spiritual leader. He was probably mentally ill and preached tyranny.