Jesus and Siddhartha Gautama

[StoneByStone]

You are blaming a spirit for the 2004 Tsunami? The Coronavirus? How can that be if you're an atheist?

I'm talking about the fictional character of Yahweh. Getting people to believe that this character is real and good is dangerous.
I think Thanos and the Joker are awesome, but would it be a good idea to teach people, including young children, that these people are real beings that should be worshiped? That the things they do are good, instead of just fictional entertainment?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I'm talking about the fictional character of Yahweh. Getting people to believe that this character is real and good is dangerous.
I think Thanos and the Joker are awesome, but would it be a good idea to teach people, including young children, that these people are real beings that should be worshiped? That the things they do are good, instead of just fictional entertainment?

Ahh, so you don't like Jews. Interesting. Most Christians go with the New Testament. Only the Evangelicals and Baptists like to cherry-pick the Old Testament.

Still, so what? What harm does that do to you if someone believes Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of a whale? Do you seek to dictate what people believe?

I think parents and citizens are free to believe as they wish as long as those beliefs don't cause harm to others by spreading hate and declaring certain religions "dangerous".

 

[StoneByStone]

Whether or not you respect Christianity, there is exactly zero percent doubt that Christianity (along with the civic republicanism of ancient Greece) is the very foundation of western civilization in ways we generally do not even think about. In ethics, literature, art, politics, philosophy..

Western Civilization is absolutely not based on Christianity. Yes, art has been influenced by Christianity, but our ethics, laws, politics, and overall culture is based on Ancient Athens.
Things like Democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, equality before the law, rejection of slavery, these things are all Greek ideas that go against the Bible and were not present in Europe when the Catholic Church ruled the continent. It wasn't until the Enlightenment, when we started moving away from Christianity, that these ideas became popular.
We can say that in theory Christianity is about equality because a whore and a king are equal in Heaven, but on Earth, they are not to be considered equal before the law, and only one has a career that gets them into Heaven.

I maintain that virtually all of western culture, thought, art, philosophy, and ethics has been touched by Christianity, and we are all touched and informed by it, even if only by osmosis.

I'll agree that Christian imagery is a feature of Western Civilization. And sure, Christianity has influenced our laws here and there. But outside of art and imagery, Christian influence is minimal. The ideas that became law and social norms are Greek and Anti-Christian.

Yes, everyone knows many terrible things were done in the name of Christianity. Lots of terrible things have been done in the name of science too.

The difference is that science isn't a philosophy. Nobody does something in the name of science. They do something in the name of a philosophy they think is scientific.
If there is one ethical idea that we can say is pure science, it would probably be that faith is bad unless it involves logic and evidence. And that has been a positive for the world.

 

[StoneByStone]

Ahh, so you don't like Jews. Interesting. Most Christians go with the New Testament. Only the Evangelicals and Baptists like to cherry-pick the Old Testament.

WTF? When did I say anything about Jews here?
Anyway, Christians have been forced to modify Christianity to be more secular and Western. The Christianity preached today is very different from the Christianity of the Roman Empire and the Middle Ages. Basically, they have to go with the New Testament and only the socially acceptable parts.

Still, so what? What harm does that do to you if someone believes Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of a whale? Do you seek to dictate what people believe?

Like I said before, when society sees beliefs like this as acceptable and legitimate, it encourages the spread of Fake News and blind loyalty.

I think parents and citizens are free to believe as they wish as long as those beliefs don't cause harm to others by spreading hate and declaring certain religions "dangerous".

While I agree we should have freedom of religion, these beliefs actually do cause harm.

 

[StoneByStone]

Western secularized Buddhism with gods? Care to name one or two?

No, there is Western secularized Buddhism, which doesn't have gods, then there is the original Eastern Buddhism which does have gods and other spiritual elements.
I practice meditation and mindfulness myself, but I don't believe in the crazy stuff like gods and the afterlife.

Education and modernization is already reducing the numbers of people who follow dogmatic religions in First World countries, but most people still have spiritual beliefs.

And as the living standards continue to rise, all of the spiritual beliefs will die out too. Eliminating religion is as simple as giving people a world where they don't need to lie to themselves.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

WTF? When did I say anything about Jews here?...

Yahweh. Are you fucking kidding? Yahweh is Hebrew for "God".

Still waiting for you to back up your previous claim. If you don't; you have a few choices: answer, apologize, lie or run.

So Buddhism is different in that there is a secularized Western version in addition to the original version that does involve gods and other supernatural elements. The former doesn't involve spiritual faith, the latter does.

Western secularized Buddhism with gods? Care to name one or two?

 

[Cypress]

Western Civilization is absolutely not based on Christianity. Yes, art has been influenced by Christianity, but our ethics, laws, politics, and overall culture is based on Ancient Athens.
Things like Democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, equality before the law, rejection of slavery, these things are all Greek ideas that go against the Bible and were not present in Europe when the Catholic Church ruled the continent. It wasn't until the Enlightenment, when we started moving away from Christianity, that these ideas became popular.
We can say that in theory Christianity is about equality because a whore and a king are equal in Heaven, but on Earth, they are not to be considered equal before the law, and only one has a career that gets them into Heaven.

I'll agree that Christian imagery is a feature of Western Civilization. And sure, Christianity has influenced our laws here and there. But outside of art and imagery, Christian influence is minimal. The ideas that became law and social norms are Greek and Anti-Christian.



The difference is that science isn't a philosophy. Nobody does something in the name of science. They do something in the name of a philosophy they think is scientific.
If there is one ethical idea that we can say is pure science, it would probably be that faith is bad unless it involves logic and evidence. And that has been a positive for the world.

Christianity profoundly influenced western civilization, and the western ethical, political, intellectual, literary, and artistic heritage we inherited. You will find almost no credible historians who dispute that.

One does not have to be a Christian to be able to recognize it's influence on the arc of western civilization.

The influence has been so profound we generally do not even recognize it on a day to day basis. I personally think it was a good thing that the golden rule replaced might makes right in the ethical pantheon. But the influence Christianity has on us foundational even if unrecognized. Almost all of us are imbued with ethical, intellectual, and philosophical maxims and tenets which can be traced back directly or indirectly to Augustine, Jerome, Thomas Aquinas..

I believe we would not even recognize our culture without the fusion and inheritance we received from Greek culture and Christian thought

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Christianity profoundly influenced western civilization, and the western ethical, political, intellectual, literary, and artistic heritage we inherited. You will find almost no credible historians who dispute that.

One does not have to be a Christian to be able to recognize it's influence on the arc of western civilization.

The influence has been so profound we generally do not even recognize it on a day to day basis. I personally think it was a good thing that the golden rule replaced might makes right in the ethical pantheon. But the influence Christianity has on us foundational even if unrecognized. Almost all of us are imbued with ethical, intellectual, and philosophical maxims and tenets which can be traced back directly or indirectly to Augustine, Jerome, Thomas Aquinas..

I believe we would not even recognize our culture without the fusion and inheritance we received from Greek culture and Christian thought

Agreed. Same for Buddhism and Hindi in the Far East.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed. Same for Buddhism and Hindi in the Far East.

Yes.
Chinese civilization may be most profoundly influenced by Confucianism.

In the west, one thing we tend to forget is that the value we place on equality and social justice was forged in the crucible of Christianity.

The New Testament is probably the first piece of literature in human history that did not treat peasants, prostitutes, the disaffected as caricatures or as objects of comedy or scorn. They are treated as fully developed humans worthy of dignity. Their souls have equal value to the souls of kings, queens, and Caesars.

While in practice, Christianity and the west did not live up to the premise of equality, I believe it was the Gospels that planted the seeds for Western civilization's long, inexorable trajectory towards increasing equality and social justice.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Chinese civilization may be most profoundly influenced by Confucianism.

In the west, one thing we tend to forget is that the value we place on equality and social justice was forged in the crucible of Christianity.

The New Testament is probably the first piece of literature in human history that did not treat peasants, prostitutes, the disaffected as caricatures or as objects of comedy or scorn. They are treated as fully developed humans worthy of dignity. Their souls have equal value to the souls of kings, queens, and Caesars.

While in practice, Christianity and the west did not live up to the premise of equality, it was the Gospels that planted the seeds of Western civilization's long, inexorable trajectory towards increasing equality and social justice.

Just more sauce for the goose.

 

[StoneByStone]

Yahweh. Are you fucking kidding? Yahweh is Hebrew for "God".

Yes, but the name is also used for the god of Judaism and Christianity. The same way "Allah" is Arabic for "God," but it's also used as the name of the god of Islam.

Still waiting for you to back up your previous claim. If you don't; you have a few choices: answer, apologize, lie or run.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_deities

 

[StoneByStone]

Christianity profoundly influenced western civilization, and the western ethical, political, intellectual, literary, and artistic heritage we inherited. You will find almost no credible historians who dispute that.

And yet when we look at all of the cornerstones of Western Civilization, such as Democracy and freedom of speech, we see that they're all Pre-Christian Greek ideas that come from the Enlightenment with roots in Ancient Athens.

Which Western ideas come from the Bible or Christian tradition? Which Western ideas were present in the Catholic Middle Ages?

 

[bhaktajan]

I'm talking about the fictional character of Yahweh. Getting people to believe that this character is real and good is dangerous.
....

There is no such thing as fiction...it just a storyteller telling a story.

BTW, upon what maxim is one to then arrive at the conclusion that Yahweh is fictional? What make you say that?

Was it not appropriate to time and circumstance that a "Yahweh" served it purpose?

Is the fear of fascism by a clique-committee will over shadow/contend with one-man-one-vote democratic principles?

 

[StoneByStone]

There is no such thing as fiction...it just a storyteller telling a story.

But you know that some stories really happened and others did not, right?

BTW, upon what maxim is one to then arrive at the conclusion that Yahweh is fictional? What make you say that?

There's no evidence that he ever really existed

Was it not appropriate to time and circumstance that a "Yahweh" served it purpose?

In what way?

Is the fear of fascism by a clique-committee will over shadow/contend with one-man-one-vote democratic principles?

I'm not sure what this means.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Yes, but the name is also used for the god of Judaism and Christianity. The same way "Allah" is Arabic for "God," but it's also used as the name of the god of Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_deities

Nice try, dude, but I've never seen Christians use "Yahweh" in conversations about God. The only time I've seen them use the word is when they were quoting it directly out of the Bible. OTOH, Jews commonly use the term which is why I saw antisemitism in your hateful comments about Yahweh believers.

Thanks for the link but a bodhisattva is not a god. Same goes for other "divine beings" such as angels. Yes, some Buddhists believe in "divine beings" such as bodhisattvas but that doesn't mean they believe in a "God" or "gods".

 

[Cypress]

And yet when we look at all of the cornerstones of Western Civilization, such as Democracy and freedom of speech, we see that they're all Pre-Christian Greek ideas that come from the Enlightenment with roots in Ancient Athens.

Which Western ideas come from the Bible or Christian tradition? Which Western ideas were present in the Catholic Middle Ages?

And yet when we look at all of the cornerstones of Western Civilization, such as Democracy and freedom of speech, we see that they're all Pre-Christian Greek ideas that come from the Enlightenment with roots in Ancient Athens.

Which Western ideas come from the Bible or Christian tradition? Which Western ideas were present in the Catholic Middle Ages?

I already stated multiple times the west owes a massive debt to Greek politics, art, literature, philosophy.

The influence of Christianity is so profound we often do not even think about it or recognize it: ethics, social justice, education, art, literature, politics, philosophy.

The greatest minds and philosophers of late antiquity and the middle ages were Christian philosophers and scholars. The influence of people like Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas on the arc of western civilization is undisputed by reputable historians.

The European University owes its heritage to Christian scholars.

Walk into any major art museum if you need to convince yourself of the influence of Christianity on western art.

Western political institutions were based in part on the Catholic church.

The NT is one of the most important and influential pieces of literature in western history. The informed person cannot read Dante, Chaucer, the Arthurian canon without reflecting on the enormous influence of Christianity on western literature.

Social justice movements in the west -- from slavery abolition, to the movements to establish liberal social welfare states in the 20th century - were inspired in large part by Christian ethics.

As a progressive person, I do not believe Christianity should be given a favored status in our secular democracy. But that does not prevent me from recognizing the milieu of Western culture is permeated by Christian heritage in ways we generally do think about on a day to day basis.

 

[StoneByStone]

Nice try, dude, but I've never seen Christians use "Yahweh" in conversations about God. The only time I've seen them use the word is when they were quoting it directly out of the Bible. OTOH, Jews commonly use the term which is why I saw antisemitism in your hateful comments about Yahweh believers.

Well I've seen Christians use the name when talking about the god of Judaism and Christianity, as opposed to the concept of god from other religions. Some Christian groups also use the name Jehovah. I don't see how it's anti-semitic to use the Hebrew name of a Hebrew god.
Just curious, are you Jewish?

Thanks for the link but a bodhisattva is not a god. Same goes for other "divine beings" such as angels. Yes, some Buddhists believe in "divine beings" such as bodhisattvas but that doesn't mean they believe in a "God" or "gods".

The link also has a list of Buddhist gods.

 

[StoneByStone]

I already stated multiple times the west owes a massive debt to Greek politics, art, literature, philosophy.

The influence of Christianity is so profound we often do not even think about it or recognize it: ethics, social justice, education, art, literature, politics, philosophy.

The greatest minds and philosophers of late antiquity and the middle ages were Christian philosophers and scholars. The influence of people like Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas on the arc of western civilization is undisputed by reputable historians.

The European University owes its heritage to Christian scholars.

Walk into any major art museum if you need to convince yourself of the influence of Christianity on western art.

Western political institutions were based in part on the Catholic church.

The informed person cannot read Dante, Chaucer, the Arthurian canon without reflecting on the enormous influence of Christianity on western literature.

Social justice movements in the west -- from slavery abolition, to the movements to establish liberal social welfare states in the 20th century - were inspired in part by Christian ethics.

As a progressive person, I do not believe Christianity should be given a favored status in our secular democracy. But that does not prevent me from recognizing the milieu of Western culture is permeated by Christian heritage in ways we generally do think about on a day to day basis.

What specific Western ideas come from either the Bible or Christian tradition?
Slavery abolition absolutely does not count because slavery was allowed in the Bible and practiced during the Catholic Middle Ages. The abolition movement grew out of the Enlightenment while slavery was still being practiced and justified by Christianity.

The most I'll grant you is that Christianity influenced Western art, no question. What I'm saying is that Christianity had an extremely minimal influence on our laws and politics. Those came from the Enlightenment with roots in Ancient Athens. I understand you acknowledged the West has its roots in Greece, but you're incorrect in saying Western Civilization is based on Christianity, other than when it comes to art.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Well I've seen Christians use the name when talking about the god of Judaism and Christianity, as opposed to the concept of god from other religions. Some Christian groups also use the name Jehovah. I don't see how it's anti-semitic to use the Hebrew name of a Hebrew god.
Just curious, are you Jewish?

The link also has a list of Buddhist gods.

Nice deflection about Jehovah. While your statement is true, we were talking about your claims Christians use Yahweh as Jews do.

Why does my religion matter to you? If I was Jewish, would that change your opinion of me? Would it alter my points?

Again, there's a difference between God, gods and divine beings. If a Buddhist wants to mix in Hindi or some other religion, that's different than claiming Buddhism has gods.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

What specific Western ideas come from either the Bible or Christian tradition?
Slavery abolition absolutely does not count because slavery was allowed in the Bible and practiced during the Catholic Middle Ages. The abolition movement grew out of the Enlightenment while slavery was still being practiced and justified by Christianity....

Yet Christians led the Abolitionist movement in the United States. It's misleading at best and dishonest at worse to claim or imply Christianity justified slavery.