Jesus and Siddhartha Gautama

[Cypress]

What specific Western ideas come from either the Bible or Christian tradition?
Slavery abolition absolutely does not count because slavery was allowed in the Bible and practiced during the Catholic Middle Ages. The abolition movement grew out of the Enlightenment while slavery was still being practiced and justified by Christianity.

The most I'll grant you is that Christianity influenced Western art, no question. What I'm saying is that Christianity had an extremely minimal influence on our laws and politics. Those came from the Enlightenment with roots in Ancient Athens. I understand you acknowledged the West has its roots in Greece, but you're incorrect in saying Western Civilization is based on Christianity, other than when it comes to art.

Reputable historians almost universally disagree with you.

The burden is on you to prove the history of Western civilization is not influenced in a significant way by christianty.

Since your assertion flies in the face of scholarly historcal consensus, it is on you to prove your claims

 

[Cypress]

And yet when we look at all of the cornerstones of Western Civilization, such as Democracy and freedom of speech, we see that they're all Pre-Christian Greek ideas that come from the Enlightenment with roots in Ancient Athens.

Which Western ideas come from the Bible or Christian tradition? Which Western ideas were present in the Catholic Middle Ages?

Western civilization did not suddenly start in 1750 with the enlightenment. Western civilization traces its arc back over two millennia. Even many of the enlightenment thinkers were christian, deist, or otherwise were influenced by Christian ethics . Some of them objected to the corruption in the church and the undue influence of clerics on politics.

I provided numerous examples of the profound influence of Christianity on western civilization.

The connection between social justice movements in the west and Christianity and Christian ethics are well known and do not require proof on a message board

Since your opinion that western civilization was not substantially influenced by Christianity -- a view not shared by any reputable historical scholar I am aware of - I therefore leave the burden on you to prove your claim

 

[bhaktajan]

Quote Originally Posted by bhaktajan View Post
There is no such thing as fiction...it just a storyteller telling a story.

But you know that some stories really happened and others did not, right?

Do you know who your real father is? Who told you who he is? You believe her?

BTW, upon what maxim is one to then arrive at the conclusion that Yahweh is fictional? What make you say that?

There's no evidence that he ever really existed

The only evidence is the one we are given by "disciplic succession".

Almost 100% of what you commonly think you believe is actually, in practice, an act of faith.
We rely on demigods to fly that plane and raise our taxes. You can't fight cityhall. You are indentured and it was hard won.

Was it not appropriate to time and circumstance that a "Yahweh" served it purpose?

In what way?

Oppenheimer said upon seeing the atomic cloud rise: "I am reminded of the words of Vishnu, 'Time I am destroyer of all'"

It is written:
"The avatara, or incarnation of Godhead, descends from the kingdom of God for material manifestation. And the particular form of the Personality of Godhead who so descends is called an incarnation, or avatara. Such incarnations are situated in the spiritual world, the kingdom of God. When they descend to the material creation, they assume the name avatara. One can attain the perfect stage of liberation from birth and death simply by knowing the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no alternative because anyone who does not understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead is surely in the mode of ignorance. Consequently he will not attain salvation, simply, so to speak, by licking the outer surface of the bottle of honey, or by mundane scholarship. Such empiric philosophers may assume very important roles in the material world, but they are not necessarily eligible for liberation. Such puffed up mundane scholars have to wait for the causeless mercy of the devotee of the Lord. Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself. Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all sentient beings, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form. it is given from the heart to the right person at the right time and at the right place. Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself. The Vedic principles push one towards complete surrender unto Him; and, whenever such principles are disturbed by the demonic, the Lord appears. From the Bhagavata-purana we understand that Lord Buddha is the incarnation of Krsna who appeared when materialism was rampant and materialists were using the pretext of the authority of the Vedas. Although there are certain restrictive rules and regulations regarding animal sacrifice for particular purposes in the Vedas, people of demonic tendency still took to animal sacrifice without reference to the Vedic principles. Lord Buddha appeared to stop this nonsense and to establish the Vedic principles of nonviolence. Therefore each and every avatara, or incarnation of the Lord, has a particular mission, and they are all described in the revealed scriptures. No one should be accepted as an avatara unless he is referred to by scriptures. It is not a fact that the Lord appears only on Indian soil. He can advent Himself anywhere and everywhere, and whenever He desires to appear. In each and every incarnation, He speaks as much about religion as can be understood by the particular people under their particular circumstances. But the mission is the same—to lead people to God consciousness and obedience to the principles of religion. Sometimes He descends personally, and sometimes He sends His bona fide representative in the form of His son, or servant, or Himself in some disguised form."

Is the fear of fascism by a clique-committee will over shadow/contend with one-man-one-vote democratic principles?

I'm not sure what this means.

You are worried that autocrats will rule although they are just thugs

 

[Cypress]

Scholarly consensus is that western civilization was profoundly influenced by the Christian tradition.

Any claims that western civilization was not significantly influenced by Christianity need to be proven by the one making the claim.

Part of the issue may be semantic. If I used the word foudational, that is a loaded word, and I may be more accurate to say Christianity profoundly influenced western civilization

Western Civilization as a term requires clarity. Anyone who wants to limit western civilization to the French Enlightenment, and to the scientific revolution of the 19th century is constraining the arc of western civilization to a very ephemeral period of time, taken outside the context of the vast period of western history preceding it.

Western civilization has always accorded a prominent. place to religion. and, by extension, to religious institutions and leaders. We will ask why this should be the case. Although we will pay some attention to the ancient religions of the Mediterranean world, we’ll focus throughout on the three dominant monotheistic traditions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Each of these religious traditions produced sacred books and vast commentaries on those books. Christianity also produced art, architecture, and music that have become living parts of the Western tradition.

If Western culture was at its source primarily religious, it was never exclusively so. This insight will invite us to probe the philosophical tradition of the West as it has asked how people should live, how they should conduct themselves, what they should regard as beautiful, and where they should find their pleasure. We will notice that the West has provided many answers to. these fundamental questions. What has been common are the rational tools of debate used to seek answers and the ferocious critical tools elaborated to cross-examine every answer that has been offered.

- Dr. Thomas F.X. Noble, University of Notre Dame.

 

[bhaktajan]

Scholarly consensus is that western civilization was profoundly influenced by the Christian tradition.

Any claims that western civilization was not significantly influenced by Christianity need to be proven by the one making the claim.

Part of the issue may be semantic. If I used the word foudational, that is a loaded word, and I may be more accurate to say Christianity profoundly influenced western civilization

Western Civilization as a term requires clarity. Anyone who wants to limit western civilization to the French Enlightenment, and to the scientific revolution of the 19th century is constraining the arc of western civilization to a very ephemeral period of time, taken outside the context of the vast period of western history preceding it.

Pre-western history is universally looked upon in two ways:
The Golden age;
or
The caveman days.

IMO there was always people living in metropolises in each and every prime-real estate location. Iwo there was always fishing in the Mediterranean and always ice cream in the Alps and always rice in China etc etc ---but juntas come and go.

Here's my timeline:

After the once central world power in India pre-3000 BC...
Migration of Noblemen went west and East too.
[btw why didn't the Ancient Greeks simply re-locate to the Italian peninsula?]

World migration by civil lords continued till reaching the last extents of the western land masses...
Then they went further west via Columbus...
Then they went further west to the Mississippi...
Then the Rookies...
Then California...
Then Hawaii...

Meanwhile in the east...
Japanese seized Indo-China...

Providence joined the west and east migrations until an atomic bomb split.

Ergo, the cultural morays of all Noblemen exemplified common traits.

 

[StoneByStone]

Nice deflection about Jehovah. While your statement is true, we were talking about your claims Christians use Yahweh as Jews do.

That's not #deflection. I didn't change the subject, I didn't avoid talking about the name Yahweh, I simply said that in addition to Yahweh, Christians also use the name Jehovah and neither are anti-semitic.

Why does my religion matter to you? If I was Jewish, would that change your opinion of me? Would it alter my points?

#deflection

Again, there's a difference between God, gods and divine beings. If a Buddhist wants to mix in Hindi or some other religion, that's different than claiming Buddhism has gods.

The article shows that Buddhism has many divine beings, some of which are gods. Buddhism grew out of Hinduism, similar to how Christianity grew out of Judaism. So original Eastern Buddhism does have many of the same gods as Hinduism.

 

[StoneByStone]

Yet Christians led the Abolitionist movement in the United States. It's misleading at best and dishonest at worse to claim or imply Christianity justified slavery.

Yes, but that happened after the Enlightenment. It wasn't until Christians became a lot more secular, and Christianity's influence was diminished, that Abolitionism became common.
And of course Christianity was used to justify slavery. The Anti-Abolitionists correctly pointed to the Bible to show that Christianity condones slavery. Basically, slavery was a holdover from the Catholic Middle Ages. Both the Bible and the Catholic Church taught that slavery was ok. Slavery died out during the Enlightenment because that's when the West began moving away from religion and superstition.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

That's not #deflection. I didn't change the subject, I didn't avoid talking about the name Yahweh, I simply said that in addition to Yahweh, Christians also use the name Jehovah and neither are anti-semitic.

#deflection

The article shows that Buddhism has many divine beings, some of which are gods. Buddhism grew out of Hinduism, similar to how Christianity grew out of Judaism. So original Eastern Buddhism does have many of the same gods as Hinduism.

Disagreed, but you are free to wander off into any weeds you like. I'm not going to keep repeating myself about Christian use of "Yahweh". You have your mind set, so believe as you wish. I'm certain all Christians know if they use the term or not as you claimed.

Likewise with conflating "divine beings" with "gods".

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Yes, but that happened after the Enlightenment. It wasn't until Christians became a lot more secular, and Christianity's influence was diminished, that Abolitionism became common.
And of course Christianity was used to justify slavery. The Anti-Abolitionists correctly pointed to the Bible to show that Christianity condones slavery. Basically, slavery was a holdover from the Catholic Middle Ages. Both the Bible and the Catholic Church taught that slavery was ok. Slavery died out during the Enlightenment because that's when the West began moving away from religion and superstition.

Anyone who doesn't realize slavery was common throughout all human history and claims it was only justified in Europe by Jews/Christians should read more history.

 

[StoneByStone]

The burden is on you to prove the history of Western civilization is not influenced in a significant way by christianty.

I did. I pointed out that all of the cornerstones of Western Civilization all come from the Enlightenment with roots in Ancient Athens. I also said these ideas were not present in the Catholic Middle Ages and they greatly contradict the Bible.

For example, Democracy was born in Ancient Athens and then expanded upon during the Enlightenment. Democracy was not present during the Catholic Middle Ages and does not come from the Bible.

 

[StoneByStone]

Disagreed, but you are free to wander off into any weeds you like. I'm not going to keep repeating myself about Christian use of "Yahweh". You have your mind set, so believe as you wish. I'm certain all Christians know if they use the term or not as you claimed.

Likewise with conflating "divine beings" with "gods".

No, I said there are divine beings in Buddhism, and some of them are gods. The article was pretty clear about that.

 

[StoneByStone]

Anyone who doesn't realize slavery was common throughout all human history and claims it was only justified in Europe by Jews/Christians should read more history.

#strawmanning

I never said it was only justified with Christianity. Racism was also used to justify slavery. However, Christianity was one of the things used to justify slavery, and slavery didn't end in the West until after we made the switch from Catholic Theocracy to secular Western Democracy.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

#strawmanning

I never said it was only justified with Christianity. Racism was also used to justify slavery. However, Christianity was one of the things used to justify slavery, and slavery didn't end in the West until after we made the switch from Catholic Theocracy to secular Western Democracy.

Thanks for backpedaling.

What specific Western ideas come from either the Bible or Christian tradition?
Slavery abolition absolutely does not count because slavery was allowed in the Bible and practiced during the Catholic Middle Ages. The abolition movement grew out of the Enlightenment while slavery was still being practiced and justified by Christianity.

Did you not say slavery was justified by Christianity? Haven't you spent the last several days slamming Christianity for all the bad in Europe with a little side trip into Judaism?

Didn't you ask me if I was Jewish in your little anti-religious hunt?

 

[StoneByStone]

Thanks for backpedaling.

Where did I back peddle? Yes, slavery was a holdover from the Catholic Middle ages and Christianity was still being used to justify it until Enlightenment ideas ended it. That's 100% true. Sure, slavery was ALSO justified with racism, but that doesn't negate the fact that Christianity was being used to justify slavery. You're trying to use #whataboutism here to shift the focus away from Christianity.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Where did I back peddle? Yes, slavery was a holdover from the Catholic Middle ages and Christianity was still being used to justify it until Enlightenment ideas ended it. That's 100% true. Sure, slavery was ALSO justified with racism, but that doesn't negate the fact that Christianity was being used to justify slavery. You're trying to use #whataboutism here to shift the focus away from Christianity.

Dude, you've been doing so for the past two days. You've been dodging and weaving, along with backpedaling, every time you're questioned about your beliefs or to support your beliefs.

I really don't get this whole "I'm not Christian but I respect Christianity" thing. All religion is stupid, but religions like Christianity and Islam preach that if you don't worship a god that is literally a mass murderer, then you get punished for eternity. These are not religions that produce a healthy mindset.
I don't know if Jesus ever really existed, but if he did, he wasn't a great teacher or spiritual leader. He was probably mentally ill and preached tyranny.

Spiritual faith is believing things without evidence, which is stupid and dangerous. Religion is basing a whole philosophy around spiritual faith.

Just curious, are you Jewish?

 

[bhaktajan]

I did. I pointed out that all of the cornerstones of Western Civilization all come from the Enlightenment with roots in Ancient Athens. I also said these ideas were not present in the Catholic Middle Ages and they greatly contradict the Bible.

For example, Democracy was born in Ancient Athens and then expanded upon during the Enlightenment. Democracy was not present during the Catholic Middle Ages and does not come from the Bible.

Henry VIII was King of England from 1509 until his death in 1547.

Martin Luther 1483-1546

Magna Carta Originally published on 15 June 1215

What is the Magna Carta in simple terms?
The Magna Carta (Latin for “Great Charter”) was a document
that gave certain rights to the English people.
King John of England agreed to it on June 15, 1215.
The Magna Carta stated that the king must follow the law.
He could not simply rule as he wished.

Middle Ages = 1100 to 1453. The period of European history
from the fall of the Roman Empire in the West (5th century)
to the fall of Constantinople (1453)

 

[Bill]

But he preached a philosophy of feelings over logic, blind obedience to leaders, and the worship of a tyrannical mass murdering god. A philosophy like this makes it really easy to get people to do something like a crusade.
It's like how Karl Marx never killed anyone, but he preached a philosophy in which the government gains enough power to force equality. That's an extremely dangerous idea and it's no surprise that it led to mass murder.



Sure, but it still has a philosophy that very easily lends itself to jihad. It trains people to be susceptible to dictators, war, and imperialism. Granted, that's all religion, but Christianity and Islam are especially bad since they both have the feature of a crazy god who considers people of other religions to be sinners worthy of eternal punishment. Leaders have always used dehumanization of the enemy to push people to war.



But things like this are still harming the world today. Look at the Fake News industry and the blind obedience that NPC cucks have to political parties. This is a result of a culture that values blind faith.

Sorry, I don't agree......

If you have some quotes of him advocating violence, that this place or that is "Christian Lands" etc I'll certainly read them & take them into account..

Kinda sad that the self-proclaimed local experts are not here to clear the air... They are fighting the good fight for their own Jesus...

 

[Bill]

Whether or not you respect Christianity, there is exactly zero percent doubt that Christianity (along with the civic republicanism of ancient Greece) is the very foundation of western civilization in ways we generally do not even think about. In ethics, literature, art, politics, philosophy..

Whatever flaws Christianity has in practice, it was arguably the first religion that imbued every one with a sense of equality. The soul of a prostitute was equal to the soul of an emperor in the kingdom of heaven. The ethical traditions of the NT and the implication of spiritual equality was a profound transformation from the pagan religions of Rome. Whether we realize it or not, that theoretical sense of equality has had trickle down and intangible effects throughout Western history.

I maintain that virtually all of western culture, thought, art, philosophy, and ethics has been touched by Christianity, and we are all touched and informed by it, even if only by osmosis.

Yes, everyone knows many terrible things were done in the name of Christianity. Lots of terrible things have been done in the name of science too. But I for one am generally appreciative of western culture, western civilization, western thought. And if I am honest with myself, I have to admit that my intellectual, cultural, and ethical tradition was born in the crucible of Greek antiquity and early Christianity.

Some most excellent points, thank you..........

 

[Bill]

You bring up the real problem. "Religion" is "thing". It's inanimate like a car, a shovel or a gun. It just sits there until a human being uses it. Obviously lots of human beings have murdered even more human beings in the name of religion, nationalism or a political system like communism. That's not "God's" fault, that's the direct result of human beings doing what human beings do best: slaughtering each other. No other species on the planet is as efficient at murdering their own species as the Human race. As the link below proves, Humans aren't in the top 30 species for killing their own kind, most of the other species are either infanticide or related to sexual competition. Certainly not war or genocide.

Blaming religion for mass murder is as silly as blaming forks for making people fat.

& great points as well...

 

[Bill]

I base this on the conclusion of modern scholarship.

I'll take that as a no........ If you have something to present, other than your opinion, I'll be interested in reading it, thanks..