India too. The Chinese and Indians have been buying up America since the '80s. My job offered me a huge bonus to train my South Asian replacement. I told them to go fuck themself.
The War in Ukraine
- Thread starter Scott
- Start date
Scott
Verified User
2 sayings for you:
"It Ain’t What You Don’t Know That Gets You Into Trouble. It’s What You Know for Sure That Just Ain’t So"
My own signature is a good one too (this is apparently the original):
**
believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it
**
Scott
Verified User
No, the United States' started a war in Ukraine when they chose to support the far right in removing Victor Yanukovych, the elected Ukrainian President of Ukraine back in 2014. It was all downhill from there.
Scott
Verified User
It's a lie though. It was the U.S. that started this mess way back in 2014 when it helped the far right, including neo nazis, remove Viktor Yanukovych, the elected Ukrainian President from office. It was all downhill from there. A good article on the subject, published the day Russia started its military operation in Ukraine, can be seen here:
Timeline: Euromaidan, the original “Ukraine Crisis”
As Russia actually do launch an invasion or “special operation” in Ukraine, we thought now was a good time to recap on how we got here. The historical, political and ethnic divisions in…
off-guardian.org
Scott
Verified User
I wouldn't go -that- far, but Russia was certainly severely provoked into starteing its military operation in Ukraine.
Scott
Verified User
I'm not sure that was the plan, though I have heard some theories along these lines. I think it's quite possible that the U.S., in its arrogance, never believed that Russia would start its military operation until it happened, or very shortly before then. Jeffrey Sachs' testimony before European Parliament certainly seemed to suggest this may have happened. Quoting:
**
At the end of 2021, Putin put on the table a last effort to reach a modus operandi with the U.S., in two security agreement drafts, one with Europe and one with the United States. He put the Russia-U.S. draft agreement on the table on Dec. 15, 2021.
Following that, I had an hour-long call with [National Security Advisor] Jake Sullivan in the White House, begging, “Jake, avoid the war. You can avoid the war. All the U.S. has to do is say, ‘NATO will not enlarge to Ukraine.’” And he said to me, “Oh, NATO’s not going to enlarge to Ukraine. Don’t worry about it.”
I said, “Jake, say it publicly.”
“No. No. No. We can’t say it publicly.”
I said, “Jake, you’re going to have a war over something that isn’t even going to happen?”
He said, “Don’t worry, Jeff. There will be no war.”
These are not very bright people. I’m telling you, if I can give you my honest view, they’re not very bright people. They talk to themselves. They don’t talk to anybody else. They play game theory. In noncooperative game theory, you don’t talk to the other side. You just make your strategy. This is the essence of non-cooperative game theory. It’s not negotiation theory. It’s not peacemaking theory. It is unilateral, noncooperative theory, if you know formal game theory.
That’s what they play. That kind of game theory started [in application] at the RAND Corporation. That’s what they still play. In 2019, there’s a paper by RAND, “Extending Russia: Competing from Advantageous Ground.”
Incredibly, the paper, in the public domain, asks how the U.S. should annoy, antagonize, and weaken Russia. That’s literally the strategy. We’re trying to provoke Russia, trying to make Russia break apart, perhaps have regime change, maybe unrest, maybe an economic crisis.
That’s what you in Europe call your ally. So, there I was with my frustrating phone call with Sullivan, standing out in the freezing cold. I happened to be trying to have a ski day.
“Oh, there’ll be no war, Jeff.”
We know what happened next: the Biden administration refused to negotiate over NATO enlargement. The stupidest idea of NATO is the so-called open-door policy, based on Article 10 of the NATO Treaty (1949). NATO reserves the right to go where it wants, as long as the host government agrees, without any neighbor – such as Russia — having any say whatsoever.
Well, I tell the Mexicans and the Canadians, “Don’t try it.” You know, Trump may want to take over Canada. So, the Canadian government could say to China, “Why don’t you build a military base in Ontario?” I wouldn’t advise it. The U.S. would not say, “Well, it’s an open door. That’s Canada’s and China’s business, not ours.” The U.S. would invade Canada.
Yet grownups, including in Europe, in this Parliament, in NATO, in the European Commission, repeat the absurd mantra that Russia has no say in NATO enlargement. This is nonsense stuff. This is not even baby geopolitics. This is just not thinking at all. So, the Ukraine War escalated in February 2022 when the Biden Administration refused any serious negotiations.
**
Full article:
Jeffrey Sachs: The Geopolitics of Peace
The author explains manipulative U.S. post-war foreign policy to European MPs, explodes myths about Ukraine and urges an independent European foreign policy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjcMoDFU1xg&ab_channel=MichaelvonderSchulenburg This is an edited transcript of Professor Jeffrey Sachs’
consortiumnews.com
There were some who expected the Russians to roll over, that they would not dare to confront NATO because it was obvious that NATO would slaughter them. They were even more ignorant than the ones who thought they were provoking the Russians into war so that NATO could slaughter them and then take up the rape of Russia that was going on under Yeltsin.I'm not sure that was the plan, though I have heard some theories along these lines. I think it's quite possible that the U.S., in its arrogance, never believed that Russia would start its military operation until it happened, or very shortly before then. Jeffrey Sachs' testimony before European Parliament certainly seemed to suggest this may have happened. Quoting:
**
At the end of 2021, Putin put on the table a last effort to reach a modus operandi with the U.S., in two security agreement drafts, one with Europe and one with the United States. He put the Russia-U.S. draft agreement on the table on Dec. 15, 2021.
Following that, I had an hour-long call with [National Security Advisor] Jake Sullivan in the White House, begging, “Jake, avoid the war. You can avoid the war. All the U.S. has to do is say, ‘NATO will not enlarge to Ukraine.’” And he said to me, “Oh, NATO’s not going to enlarge to Ukraine. Don’t worry about it.”
I said, “Jake, say it publicly.”
“No. No. No. We can’t say it publicly.”
I said, “Jake, you’re going to have a war over something that isn’t even going to happen?”
He said, “Don’t worry, Jeff. There will be no war.”
These are not very bright people. I’m telling you, if I can give you my honest view, they’re not very bright people. They talk to themselves. They don’t talk to anybody else. They play game theory. In noncooperative game theory, you don’t talk to the other side. You just make your strategy. This is the essence of non-cooperative game theory. It’s not negotiation theory. It’s not peacemaking theory. It is unilateral, noncooperative theory, if you know formal game theory.
That’s what they play. That kind of game theory started [in application] at the RAND Corporation. That’s what they still play. In 2019, there’s a paper by RAND, “Extending Russia: Competing from Advantageous Ground.”
Incredibly, the paper, in the public domain, asks how the U.S. should annoy, antagonize, and weaken Russia. That’s literally the strategy. We’re trying to provoke Russia, trying to make Russia break apart, perhaps have regime change, maybe unrest, maybe an economic crisis.
That’s what you in Europe call your ally. So, there I was with my frustrating phone call with Sullivan, standing out in the freezing cold. I happened to be trying to have a ski day.
“Oh, there’ll be no war, Jeff.”
We know what happened next: the Biden administration refused to negotiate over NATO enlargement. The stupidest idea of NATO is the so-called open-door policy, based on Article 10 of the NATO Treaty (1949). NATO reserves the right to go where it wants, as long as the host government agrees, without any neighbor – such as Russia — having any say whatsoever.
Well, I tell the Mexicans and the Canadians, “Don’t try it.” You know, Trump may want to take over Canada. So, the Canadian government could say to China, “Why don’t you build a military base in Ontario?” I wouldn’t advise it. The U.S. would not say, “Well, it’s an open door. That’s Canada’s and China’s business, not ours.” The U.S. would invade Canada.
Yet grownups, including in Europe, in this Parliament, in NATO, in the European Commission, repeat the absurd mantra that Russia has no say in NATO enlargement. This is nonsense stuff. This is not even baby geopolitics. This is just not thinking at all. So, the Ukraine War escalated in February 2022 when the Biden Administration refused any serious negotiations.
**
Full article:
Jeffrey Sachs: The Geopolitics of Peace
The author explains manipulative U.S. post-war foreign policy to European MPs, explodes myths about Ukraine and urges an independent European foreign policy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjcMoDFU1xg&ab_channel=MichaelvonderSchulenburg This is an edited transcript of Professor Jeffrey Sachs’
By Munich feb 2022 the Imperial Empire was sure that the Russians were going to stand up, Harris delivered the message "Let's Go!"
Last edited:
Scott
Verified User
Well, I don't know about the U.S. being certain, but Biden certainly thought it was possible if not likely:
Biden: ‘Every indication’ is that Russia will attack Ukraine ‘within the next several days’ | CNN
I like former Swiss Intelligence Officer Jacques Baud's commentary on this:
**
On February 17 [2022], President Joe Biden announces that Russia will attack Ukraine in the coming days. How does he know? Mystery… But since the 16th, the artillery shelling of the populations of Donbass has increased dramatically, as shown by the daily reports of OSCE observers. Naturally, neither the media, nor the European Union, nor NATO, nor any Western government reacts and intervenes. We will say later that this is Russian disinformation. In fact, it seems that the European Union and some countries purposely glossed over the massacre of the people of Donbass, knowing that it would provoke Russian intervention.
**
Full article:
Former NATO Military Analyst Blows the Whistle on West’s Ukraine Invasion Narrative
Jacques Baud, a NATO expert, denounces western coverage of the Ukraine invasion.
scheerpost.com
Scott
Verified User
I don't know about Russia not being afraid of NATO. I just think there is only so far that fear can move a person or a nation. I think it's essentially like the Cuban missile crisis, only in reverse. There was no way that the U.S. was going to continue to let the USSR park its nukes in Cuba. I think it's fortunate that JFK came to the conclusion that the best way to de escalate the conflict was to secretly agree to taking its nukes out of Turkey if the USSR took its nukes out of Cuba.
Scott
Verified User
I essentially agree, only I don't the words "capitulation terms" are the best here. I think it's more like agreeing to a peace deal that Russia can live with.
Scott
Verified User
I can only hope that the French don't follow through and we thus never find out just how far things could go there.
Putin who is already in hot water for going too slow (he has very good reasons for going at the paxe the Russians have) has lately been reassuring the Russians that he is standing firm against the American demand that the Russians tone down their demands for peace.
The French are currently on a multi year plan to be able to deploy even one division, which they cant do currently. Another thing.......This whole "NATO nations are trained to work together, throw NATO armies together and they will operate as a single army" is clearly not the fact, as we have seen as various NATO nations have trained Ukrainians in Western Europe for 3-5 months...they should be well trained....but when they get back to Ukraine they have been unable to work together effectively because the training is so different.
What I am saying is that other nations cant throw forces in with the French to get enough troops that might be able to hold Odessa and have it work out.....it would be an almost certain cluster fuck.
Another thing too....when Ukrainians get back to Ukraine and start fighting the Russians, after being trained 3-5 months by what are supposed to be the best of the best NATO trainers, they quickly figure out that their trainers have no idea what modern war is. As I heard someone say about a week ago "Following the US ARMY Field Manuals is a good way to die fast".
The reason NATO was building new brigades with new troops with each brigade all coming from the same NATO training nation was because the training is so different. The result was catastrophic....what they should have done was put new troops in existing brigades so that they could be further trained by their Ukrainian brothers who unlike the NATO trainers knew what they were doing from experience with fighting the Russians.
anonymoose
Classical Liberal
So you’re saying the u.s. caused Ukraine to invade Russia.It's a lie though. It was the U.S. that started this mess way back in 2014 when it helped the far right, including neo nazis, remove Viktor Yanukovych, the elected Ukrainian President from office. It was all downhill from there. A good article on the subject, published the day Russia started its military operation in Ukraine, can be seen here:
Timeline: Euromaidan, the original “Ukraine Crisis”
As Russia actually do launch an invasion or “special operation” in Ukraine, we thought now was a good time to recap on how we got here. The historical, political and ethnic divisions in…
And Russia had to invade Ukraine to keep them from taking over Russia?
Incredible!
Scott
Verified User
So you’re saying the u.s. caused Ukraine to invade Russia.It's a lie though. It was the U.S. that started this mess way back in 2014 when it helped the far right, including neo nazis, remove Viktor Yanukovych, the elected Ukrainian President from office. It was all downhill from there. A good article on the subject, published the day Russia started its military operation in Ukraine, can be seen here:
Timeline: Euromaidan, the original “Ukraine Crisis”
As Russia actually do launch an invasion or “special operation” in Ukraine, we thought now was a good time to recap on how we got here. The historical, political and ethnic divisions in…
No, I'm saying the U.S. helped remove Victor Yanukovych, Ukraine's elected President, during Euromaidan back in 2014. If you'd like details, it's all in this link:
Timeline: Euromaidan, the original “Ukraine Crisis”
As Russia actually do launch an invasion or “special operation” in Ukraine, we thought now was a good time to recap on how we got here. The historical, political and ethnic divisions in…
off-guardian.org
As I imagine you know, for a while, the Russian government was quite insistent that Russia's incursion into Ukraine be called a special military operation. While I think it's insistence on this term was too much, I suspect they were trying to point out that this was no regular war of conquest, but rather one designed to protect Russia's national security and protect the Ukrainians rebels living in the Donbass region of Ukraine. I've seen no author explain the situation better in the last few days leading up to Russia's incursion than former Swiss Intelligence Officer Jacques Baud. Quoting from an article he published shortly after Russia's incursion began:
**
On February 17 [2022], President Joe Biden announces that Russia will attack Ukraine in the coming days. How does he know? Mystery… But since the 16th, the artillery shelling of the populations of Donbass has increased dramatically, as shown by the daily reports of OSCE observers. Naturally, neither the media, nor the European Union, nor NATO, nor any Western government reacts and intervenes. We will say later that this is Russian disinformation. In fact, it seems that the European Union and some countries purposely glossed over the massacre of the people of Donbass, knowing that it would provoke Russian intervention.
[snip]
In fact, as early as February 16, Joe Biden knows that the Ukrainians began to shell the civilian populations of Donbass, putting Vladimir Putin in front of a difficult choice: to help Donbass militarily and create an international problem or to sit idle and watch Russian speakers from the Donbass being run over.
If he decides to intervene, Vladimir Putin can invoke the international obligation of “ Responsibility To Protect ” (R2P). But he knows that whatever its nature or scale, the intervention will trigger a shower of sanctions. Therefore, whether its intervention is limited to the Donbass or whether it goes further to put pressure on the West for the status of Ukraine, the price to be paid will be the same. This is what he explains in his speech on February 21.
That day, he acceded to the request of the Duma and recognized the independence of the two Republics of Donbass and, in the process, he signed treaties of friendship and assistance with them.
The Ukrainian artillery bombardments on the populations of Donbass continued and, on February 23, the two Republics requested military aid from Russia. On the 24th, Vladimir Putin invokes Article 51 of the United Nations Charter which provides for mutual military assistance within the framework of a defensive alliance.
In order to make the Russian intervention totally illegal in the eyes of the public we deliberately obscure the fact that the war actually started on February 16th. The Ukrainian army was preparing to attack the Donbass as early as 2021, as certain Russian and European intelligence services were well aware… The lawyers will judge.
**
Full article:
Former NATO Military Analyst Blows the Whistle on West’s Ukraine Invasion Narrative
Jacques Baud, a NATO expert, denounces western coverage of the Ukraine invasion.
scheerpost.com