21 years ago today

Little-Acorn said:
21 years ago today, on June 12, 1987, President Ronald Reagan made a speech at the Brandenburg Gate in Germany, saying:



(Some of Reagan's speechwriters objected to that last sentence, and tried to get the President to soften or remove it. But Reagan insisted on keeping it in.)

Can you imagine a President Obama, or Ted Kennedy, or Dick Durbin, making such a demand today if the wall still existed, along with the regime that built it?
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What I cant Imagine is this...

If Ronald Reagan was President on 9/11/01 .. that he would ultimately mislead the US into a War in Iraq...
 
Yes it is the truth.

That lovely scene you remember was a staged publicity stunt.

Gorbachev had already told Reagan he was planning to pull the wall.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Gorbachev#1987
If you would bother to read abotu Gorbachev and what he was doing in the SU at the time you would need no convincing. Try realizing the events of the time did not all swirl arround Reagan.

1987
The Central Committee Plenum in January 1987 would see the crystallisation of Gorbachev's political reforms, including proposals for multi-candidate elections and the appointment of non-Party members to government positions. He also first raised the idea of expanding co-operatives at the plenum. Later that year, May would be a month of crisis. In an almost incredible incident, a young West German, Mathias Rust, managed to fly a plane into Moscow and land near Red Square without being stopped. This massively embarrassed the military and Gorbachev made sweeping personnel changes, beginning at the top, where he appointed Dmitry Yazov as Minister of Defence.[4]

Economic reforms took up much of the rest of 1987, as a new law giving enterprises more independence was passed in June and Gorbachev released a book, Perestroika: New Thinking for Our Country and the World, in November, elucidating his main ideas for reform. Nevertheless, at the same time, the personal and professional acrimony between Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin increased; after Yeltsin criticised Gorbachev and others at the October Plenum, he was replaced as First Secretary of the Moscow Gorkom Party. This move only temporarily removed Yeltsin's influence.[4]

In 1987 he rehabilitated many opponents of Stalin, another part of the De-Stalinization, which began 1956, when Lenin's Testament was published as a booklet there.


[edit] 1988
1988 would see Gorbachev's introduction of glasnost, which gave new freedoms to the people, such as a greater freedom of speech. This was a radical change, as control of speech and suppression of government criticism had previously been a central part of the Soviet system. The press became far less controlled, and thousands of political prisoners and many dissidents were released. Gorbachev's goal in undertaking glasnost was to pressure conservatives within the CPSU who opposed his policies of economic restructuring, and he also hoped that through different ranges of openness, debate and participation, the Soviet people would support his reform initiatives. At the same time, he opened himself and his reforms up for more public criticism, evident in Nina Andreyeva's critical letter in a March edition of Sovetskaya Rossiya.[4] Gorbachev acknowledged that his liberalising policies of glasnost and perestroika owed a great deal to Alexander Dubček's "Socialism with a human face". When asked what the difference was between the Prague Spring and his own reforms, Gorbachev replied, "’’Nineteen years’’".[9]

The Law on Cooperatives enacted in May 1988 was perhaps the most radical of the economic reforms during the early part of the Gorbachev era. For the first time since Vladimir Lenin's New Economic Policy, the law permitted private ownership of businesses in the services, manufacturing, and foreign-trade sectors. The law initially imposed high taxes and employment restrictions, but these were later revised to avoid discouraging private-sector activity. Under this provision, cooperative restaurants, shops, and manufacturers became part of the Soviet scene. It should be noted that some of the SSRs ignored these restrictions. In Estonia, for example, cooperatives were permitted to cater to the needs of foreign visitors and forge partnerships with foreign companies. The large 'All-Union' industrial organisations started to be restructured. Aeroflot, for example, was split into a number of independent enterprises, some of which became the nucleus for future independent airlines. These newly autonomous business organisations were encouraged to seek foreign investment.

In June 1988, at the CPSU's XIXth Party Conference, Gorbachev launched radical reforms meant to reduce party control of the government apparatus. He proposed a new executive in the form of a presidential system, as well as a new legislative element, to be called the Congress of People's Deputies.[4]
 
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Desh said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Gorbachev#1987
If you would bother to read abotu Gorbachev and what he was doing in the SU at the time you would need no convincing. Try realizing the events of the time did not all swirl arround Reagan.

1987
The Central Committee Plenum in January 1987 would see the crystallisation of Gorbachev's political reforms, including proposals for multi-candidate elections and the appointment of non-Party members to government positions. He also first raised the idea of expanding co-operatives at the plenum. Later that year, May would be a month of crisis. In an almost incredible incident, a young West German, Mathias Rust, managed to fly a plane into Moscow and land near Red Square without being stopped. This massively embarrassed the military and Gorbachev made sweeping personnel changes, beginning at the top, where he appointed Dmitry Yazov as Minister of Defence.[4]

Economic reforms took up much of the rest of 1987, as a new law giving enterprises more independence was passed in June and Gorbachev released a book, Perestroika: New Thinking for Our Country and the World, in November, elucidating his main ideas for reform. Nevertheless, at the same time, the personal and professional acrimony between Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin increased; after Yeltsin criticised Gorbachev and others at the October Plenum, he was replaced as First Secretary of the Moscow Gorkom Party. This move only temporarily removed Yeltsin's influence.[4]

In 1987 he rehabilitated many opponents of Stalin, another part of the De-Stalinization, which began 1956, when Lenin's Testament was published as a booklet there.


[edit] 1988
1988 would see Gorbachev's introduction of glasnost, which gave new freedoms to the people, such as a greater freedom of speech. This was a radical change, as control of speech and suppression of government criticism had previously been a central part of the Soviet system. The press became far less controlled, and thousands of political prisoners and many dissidents were released. Gorbachev's goal in undertaking glasnost was to pressure conservatives within the CPSU who opposed his policies of economic restructuring, and he also hoped that through different ranges of openness, debate and participation, the Soviet people would support his reform initiatives. At the same time, he opened himself and his reforms up for more public criticism, evident in Nina Andreyeva's critical letter in a March edition of Sovetskaya Rossiya.[4] Gorbachev acknowledged that his liberalising policies of glasnost and perestroika owed a great deal to Alexander Dubček's "Socialism with a human face". When asked what the difference was between the Prague Spring and his own reforms, Gorbachev replied, "’’Nineteen years’’".[9]

The Law on Cooperatives enacted in May 1988 was perhaps the most radical of the economic reforms during the early part of the Gorbachev era. For the first time since Vladimir Lenin's New Economic Policy, the law permitted private ownership of businesses in the services, manufacturing, and foreign-trade sectors. The law initially imposed high taxes and employment restrictions, but these were later revised to avoid discouraging private-sector activity. Under this provision, cooperative restaurants, shops, and manufacturers became part of the Soviet scene. It should be noted that some of the SSRs ignored these restrictions. In Estonia, for example, cooperatives were permitted to cater to the needs of foreign visitors and forge partnerships with foreign companies. The large 'All-Union' industrial organisations started to be restructured. Aeroflot, for example, was split into a number of independent enterprises, some of which became the nucleus for future independent airlines. These newly autonomous business organisations were encouraged to seek foreign investment.

In June 1988, at the CPSU's XIXth Party Conference, Gorbachev launched radical reforms meant to reduce party control of the government apparatus. He proposed a new executive in the form of a presidential system, as well as a new legislative element, to be called the Congress of People's Deputies.[4]
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Ok. And where does it say Gorbachev told Reagan that he was going to tear down the wall before Reagan said it?
 
Democracy is the wholesome and pure air without which a socialist public organization cannot live a full-blooded life.
Mikhail Gorbachev

Dude I cant find the actual quote but I just dont understand how anyone who Knew Gorby could not have known what his aims were.

He wanted a social democracy to evolve in the USSR and everything he did was to that aim. There would be no reason for Reagan to think he was pro wall.
 
Desh said:
Democracy is the wholesome and pure air without which a socialist public organization cannot live a full-blooded life.
Mikhail Gorbachev

Dude I cant find the actual quote but I just dont understand how anyone who Knew Gorby could not have known what his aims were.

He wanted a social democracy to evolve in the USSR and everything he did was to that aim. There would be no reason for Reagan to think he was pro wall.
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I can truly say I have not heard one other person claim this.

From your favorite site, "Communists were also unimpressed by the speech, and the Soviet press agency Tass accused Reagan as giving an "openly provocative, war-mongering speech."

Doesn't sound like the response of a people who knew the wall was coming down.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tear_down_this_wall[/ame]
 
Then why did he not tear it down. The wall was not torn down until it became irrelevant. In the Summer of 89 the border between Austria and Hungary was no longer sealed and east germans left through Hungary in droves, the the Peaceful Revolution began in October with East Germans standing up against their government. Then November 9 rolls around and East German border guards just open the check points. Gorby NEVER gave an order to begin the process of dismantling the wall.
 
Cawacko you are clinging to the Idea that Gorby was no who he was so that you can give all the credit to Reagan. It shows that even his own people saw the speach as a public realtions thing.

Reagan had already met with Gorby and there should be no doubt that Gorby would tell Reagan what his plans for the USSR were. Why would he not tell him?

Answer me that question in full , Why would Gorbachev not tell Reagan that he planned to destroy communism?

BTW the wall came down in 89.
 
Desh said:
Cawacko you are clinging to the Idea that Gorby was no who he was so that you can give all the credit to Reagan. It shows that even his own people saw the speach as a public realtions thing.

Reagan had already met with Gorby and there should be no doubt that Gorby would tell Reagan what his plans for the USSR were. Why would he not tell him?

Answer me that question in full , Why would Gorbachev not tell Reagan that he planned to destroy communism?

BTW the wall came down in 89.
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I wasn't even attempting to give Reagan credit here. I'm saying that Gorbachev knew the wall was coming down in '87 is B.S. '87 is when Reagan gave the speech hence I referenced that year, not '89.
 
How is it Gorbachev would have planned the total demise of communism and not have wanted the wall to come down?

Make the logical connection.
 
Desh said:
How is it Gorbachev would have planned the total demise of communism and not have wanted the wall to come down?

Make the logical connection.
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I don't think Gorby had a 2 year plan for the dismantling of communism. THings got a bit out of anyone on that side of the Iron Curtain's control. Hell the USSR put pressure on the Hungarian government to seal their borders back up. No one wanted it to look like rats from a sinking ship. If all of the events in 89 had been some part of Gorbie's over all plan, I think he would have been better prepared for the possibility of a coup. There is no way he would have planned the collapse of the Soviet empire in two years and not thought that his life might be in jeopardy.
 
All this being said, I don't think the speech had a single thing to do with the wall coming down either. The East Germans were TIRED of living under communist rule, about 10 or 12 thousand of them got out through Austria and people in the DDR knew that. For them, that fomented a desire to be free of Soviet oppression as well. So the peaceful revolution began in 1989, there were too many people at the wall for the DDR to deal with, there were statements made about limited travel into West Berlin, those statements were made in public and not accurately and hundreds of thousands of people swarmed to the wall. The "opening" happened because the Eastern Border guards could do nothing to stop it if a riot began. November 9, 1989 happened spontaneously, and took on a life of it's own.
 
These are Gorbys own words


"My ambition was to liquidate communism, the dictatorship over all the people. Supporting me and urging me on in this mission was my wife, who was of this opinion long before I was. I knew that I could only do this if I was the leading functionary. In this my wife urged me to climb to the top post. While I actually became acquainted with the West, my mind was made up forever. I decided that I must destroy the whole apparatus of the CPSU and the USSR. Also, I must do this in all of the other socialist countries. My ideal is the path of social democracy. Only this system shall benefit all the people. This quest I decided I must fulfil.

I found friends that had the same thoughts as I in Yakovlev and Shevernadze, they all deserve to be thanked for the break-up of the USSR and the defeat of Communism.

World without communism is going to be much better. After year 2000 the world will be much better, because it shall develop and prosper. But there are countries which shall try to struggle against this. China for one. I was in Peking during the time of the protests on Tienanmen Square, where I really thought that Communism in China is going to crash. I sternly demanded of the Chinese leadership that I want to speak to the protesters, but they did not allow me to do so. If Communism would fall in China, all the world would be better off, and on the road to peace.

I wanted to save the USSR, but only under social democracy rule. This I could not do. Yeltsin wanted power, he did not know anything about democracy or what I intended to do. We wanted the democratic USSR to have rights and freedom."
 
In exactly 9 months there will be a boom of babies to Republican families. It's a survival technique, and what a more romantic time to maka-love than the 21 year anniversary of Reagan's victory over communism!?
 
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