PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
why do the liberals on this board always run away when they realize they are losing an argument?.....
9 Conservative Myths About Right-Wing Domestic Terrorism
- Thread starter signalmankenneth
- Start date
I've never understood the inability of conservatives to face the fact fascism is on the right. No historian until contemporary times has ever argued differently. Today, as with so much of the conservative echo chamber rhetoric, fascism turns out to be something all brand new.
In a nutshell liberalism is about individual freedom, conservatism is about hierarchy. That is written clearly in the ideological frameworks of each. To deny that is to say white is black.
But take living examples if you need proof. Who wants to control a woman right to choose, a gay person's right to marry, or even UHC that allows all people more freedom.
Another example, not one conservative complained as we illegally invaded a sovereign nation killing thousands of men women and children, and yet now they protest the taxes that invasion caused and helping children through welfare or UHC.
Note too how conservatives are pro corporate healthcare and opposed to any change in corporate power. See nanny state below.
conservative hierarchy - the true conservative face
http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/conservatism.html
Conservatives today are more fascist than any time since FDR. See the piece below.
Fourteen points of fascism and the last administration.
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
Mussolini's words and every conservative who writes online.
"The Corporation is established to develop the wealth, political power and welfare of the Italian people. Corporatism means a disciplined, and therefore a controlled, economy, since there can be no discipline which is not controlled. Corporatism overcomes Socialism as well as it does Liberalism: it creates a new synthesis."
See the corporate conservative nanny state.
http://www.conservativenannystate.org/cns.html
conservative hierarchy
http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/conservatism.html
http://uncouthruminations.blogspot.com/2009/02/fascism-of-rush-limbaugh.html
"Under George W. Bush’s watch, the government became more intrusive in all of our lives. The Patriot Act validated the belief of those who were called “kooks” and “whackos” that we do indeed live in a surveillance state. Records became public, privacy became nonexistent, and liberties were curtailed. American conservatives were supposed to believe in fundamental freedom, but for eight years, they defined “freedom” as whatever the government does.
Michael Tomasky’s Critique of Liberal Fascism
"Michael Tomasky has posted a review of Jonah Goldberg’s book “Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left from Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning.” I would like to publicly thank Tomasky for his efforts, since I certainly wasn’t going to read the book. Some might find such a stance close-minded, I consider it an issue of basic pragmatism. I don’t like spending my limited free time reading every bit of intellectually dishonest garbage that is put out. Jon Stewart had an interview with Jonah Goldberg on The Daily Show. I posted the this comment at reddit in the wake of watching the interview. A slightly shorter version and modified version is given below."
http://codesmithy.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/michael-tomaskys-critique-of-liberal-fascism/
Amazon.com: Fascism: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) (9780192801555): Kevin Passmore: Books
But back OT. Clinton elected - wingnuts went crazy - same as now - Oklahoma city.
In a nutshell liberalism is about individual freedom, conservatism is about hierarchy. That is written clearly in the ideological frameworks of each. To deny that is to say white is black.
But take living examples if you need proof. Who wants to control a woman right to choose, a gay person's right to marry, or even UHC that allows all people more freedom.
Another example, not one conservative complained as we illegally invaded a sovereign nation killing thousands of men women and children, and yet now they protest the taxes that invasion caused and helping children through welfare or UHC.
Note too how conservatives are pro corporate healthcare and opposed to any change in corporate power. See nanny state below.
conservative hierarchy - the true conservative face
http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/conservatism.html
Conservatives today are more fascist than any time since FDR. See the piece below.
Fourteen points of fascism and the last administration.
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
Mussolini's words and every conservative who writes online.
"The Corporation is established to develop the wealth, political power and welfare of the Italian people. Corporatism means a disciplined, and therefore a controlled, economy, since there can be no discipline which is not controlled. Corporatism overcomes Socialism as well as it does Liberalism: it creates a new synthesis."
See the corporate conservative nanny state.
http://www.conservativenannystate.org/cns.html
conservative hierarchy
http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/conservatism.html
http://uncouthruminations.blogspot.com/2009/02/fascism-of-rush-limbaugh.html
"Under George W. Bush’s watch, the government became more intrusive in all of our lives. The Patriot Act validated the belief of those who were called “kooks” and “whackos” that we do indeed live in a surveillance state. Records became public, privacy became nonexistent, and liberties were curtailed. American conservatives were supposed to believe in fundamental freedom, but for eight years, they defined “freedom” as whatever the government does.
Michael Tomasky’s Critique of Liberal Fascism
"Michael Tomasky has posted a review of Jonah Goldberg’s book “Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left from Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning.” I would like to publicly thank Tomasky for his efforts, since I certainly wasn’t going to read the book. Some might find such a stance close-minded, I consider it an issue of basic pragmatism. I don’t like spending my limited free time reading every bit of intellectually dishonest garbage that is put out. Jon Stewart had an interview with Jonah Goldberg on The Daily Show. I posted the this comment at reddit in the wake of watching the interview. A slightly shorter version and modified version is given below."
http://codesmithy.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/michael-tomaskys-critique-of-liberal-fascism/
Amazon.com: Fascism: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) (9780192801555): Kevin Passmore: Books
But back OT. Clinton elected - wingnuts went crazy - same as now - Oklahoma city.
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
I just provided a whole list of folks who argued differently....
???...I think you meant "in a nut's view".....
get real...Roe v Wade and the gay marriage controversy were both about the left cramming their beliefs down everyone's throats.....
lol, artful misrepresentation....kudos.....now, the reality....government run health versus individual choice....
lol, the "corporation" that Mussolini was referring to was a government owned corporation....
nice try....ignorant, but noble.....
Fascism is of the right, the links demonstrate that for anyone interested in a genuine definition of your ideological frame. That you don't accept that is a sign of a lack of education.
Please provide a few historians who believe what you do. I see no names nor references. I'm sure it will be easy countering them. Historians now, not apologists for right wing conservative fascism.
"Mussolini sent out blackshirts to attack unions"
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/rush-limbaugh-has-his-fascism-all-ba
http://cursor.org/stories/fascismintroduction.php
Mott the Hoople
Sweet Jane
yea well if you can't deal with the facts, that's your problem.
Mott the Hoople
Sweet Jane
Nice job of parsing words. You can't even quote the author correctly.
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
post #15
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
not even an attempt to back up your claims?.......you sure have turned out to be a chicken shit of a debater.....how did you ever earn the respect people had for you when I got here?.....
Mott the Hoople
Sweet Jane
All right, that's an easy enough challenge. How about if I give you a number of factors that distinguish fascism as a right wing political movement as well as recent examples of those distinguishing factors being used by the far right.
#1. Continuing and powerful use of nationalism. Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Examples, The Republican party's call for a constitutional amendment prohibiting the burning of the flag in as a symbol of political protest. The glorification of war by the right wing. Calling those who oppose the spurious grounds for the Iraq war as treasonous. Right wing claims that multiculturalism is a threat to the US. The Bush administration inscribing propaganda slogans on the tombstones of soldiers killed in Iraq (The only time this has been done in our nations history.)
#2. Disdain for the recognition of human rights. Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc., Recent examples; The kidnapping of suspected terrorist and using torture methods on them. The torture of US prisoners at Abu Graib and Gitmo. The Bush administration advocating legislation that would prohibit detainees (prisoners) from citing the Geneva convention as a legal basis for challenging their imprisonment. Denying citizens their rights under habeous corpus.
#3. Identifying enemies/Scape goats as a unifying cause. The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc., Examples; The rights villifying and marginalization of muslims (the pejorative Islamofascist ironically comes to mind). Introducing legislation to limit academic freedom (Ohio bill SB-24 Section C is a good example) by muzzling professors who teach or discuss controversial and/or unpopular views. Propaganda outlets identifying opponents as enemies of the nation (ever see Hannity's "Enemy of the State" segment?).
#4. Supremacy of the military. Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized. Examples; The right has consistantly slashed funding for domestic programs while spending money on the millitary like drunken sailors.
Want some more? go herehttp://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
#1. Examples, The Republican party's call for a constitutional amendment prohibiting the burning of the flag in as a symbol of political protest I don't think you can characterize anger at the burning of the flag as "fascism"
The glorification of war by the right wing. document "glorification"?
Calling those who oppose the spurious grounds for the Iraq war as treasonous. there was criticism, and I think valid criticism that the approach of the left to the war in Iraq served more to increase the violence than to lessen it
Right wing claims that multiculturalism is a threat to the US. document?
The Bush administration inscribing propaganda slogans on the tombstones of soldiers killed in Iraq (The only time this has been done in our nations history.)document?
#2.
The kidnapping of suspected terrorist and using torture methods on them. The torture of US prisoners at Abu Graib and Gitmo. there is legitimate difference of opinion on whether what occurred there can be classified as "torture". In any event, it can't be categorized even remotely in the same league as what occurred in Nazi Germany
The Bush administration advocating legislation that would prohibit detainees (prisoners) from citing the Geneva convention as a legal basis for challenging their imprisonment. the Geneva convention clearly was inadequate to deal with the concept of terrorism. That doesn't mean that the terrorists didn't receive treatment equal to or even superior to that spelled out in the Geneva convention
Denying citizens their rights under habeous corpus.document?
#3. liberals I would spot you liberals, but liberals do the same for conservatives, so it isn't a distinguishing factor
villifying and marginalization villifying and marginalizing is no less a characteristic of the left
#4. Supremacy of the military. Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized. Examples; The right has consistantly slashed funding for domestic programs while spending money on the millitary like drunken sailors.
yet, the information I posted showed that fascists spent huge sums on social welfare, does that then mean that both liberals and conservatives share something with fascists?....by the way, your claim that the right has "consistently slashed" funding for domestic programs is actually not true. Perhaps they have increased funding less than the left would like, but it hasn't been "slashed"
The glorification of war by the right wing. document "glorification"?
Calling those who oppose the spurious grounds for the Iraq war as treasonous. there was criticism, and I think valid criticism that the approach of the left to the war in Iraq served more to increase the violence than to lessen it
Right wing claims that multiculturalism is a threat to the US. document?
The Bush administration inscribing propaganda slogans on the tombstones of soldiers killed in Iraq (The only time this has been done in our nations history.)document?
#2.
The kidnapping of suspected terrorist and using torture methods on them. The torture of US prisoners at Abu Graib and Gitmo. there is legitimate difference of opinion on whether what occurred there can be classified as "torture". In any event, it can't be categorized even remotely in the same league as what occurred in Nazi Germany
The Bush administration advocating legislation that would prohibit detainees (prisoners) from citing the Geneva convention as a legal basis for challenging their imprisonment. the Geneva convention clearly was inadequate to deal with the concept of terrorism. That doesn't mean that the terrorists didn't receive treatment equal to or even superior to that spelled out in the Geneva convention
Denying citizens their rights under habeous corpus.document?
#3. liberals I would spot you liberals, but liberals do the same for conservatives, so it isn't a distinguishing factor
villifying and marginalization villifying and marginalizing is no less a characteristic of the left
#4. Supremacy of the military. Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized. Examples; The right has consistantly slashed funding for domestic programs while spending money on the millitary like drunken sailors.
yet, the information I posted showed that fascists spent huge sums on social welfare, does that then mean that both liberals and conservatives share something with fascists?....by the way, your claim that the right has "consistently slashed" funding for domestic programs is actually not true. Perhaps they have increased funding less than the left would like, but it hasn't been "slashed"
There's nothing there? If you read Griffin and any other historian, they do not support the position taken by the right that fascism is of the left.
It is because Fascism has no precise meaning or form that causes the confusion, but without some definition of F, we can't even talk about it. Kevin Passmore's book is probably the best basic outline of F.
"When one considers the ideology of fascism many notions and images spring to mind: totalitarianism, nationalism, ultranationalism, racism, oppression, censorship, violence, Nazism, Para militarism, right wing conservatism, radicalism, eugenics and the Holocaust. As Kevin Passmore suggests, Fascism is all these things and not these things, as it has a mercurial nature. In fact, "...fascism, as Ortega y Gasset says, is always `A' and not `A'." (p.11)"
Above is from second review below on Amazon and it has a good outline of the book.
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Fascism-Very-Short-Introduction-Introductions/dp/0192801554/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250616458&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: Fascism: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) (9780192801555): Kevin Passmore: Books[/ame]
Passmore is fair and on page 31 he gives his definition of F. I should scan for you. Authoritarian conservatism and fascism are so close they are mostly indistinguishable.
http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm
The above link lists qualities of fascism and almost all fit modern day conservatives, particularly the far right. They fit perfectly and require no imaginative jump to give specific examples from the right even today. And do not ask me to list them, most are listed here:
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
obviously that isn't true....just follow to the wiki site....there is an extensive list of differing viewpoints from qualified historians.....
I did and they don't support your position. Admittedly fascism is difficult to nail down, but the info I posted above clearly places it on the right. You are just not honest enough to acknowledge that and will simply find some sentence or phrase to confuse.
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
the only explanation is that you are ignoring the comments you don't agree with.....
The real explanation is you are caught in an ideology that fails to view itself honestly and can only criticize others. If you had read the pieces you would not have such a simplistic response. It is why when in power conservatism fails, you have to understand the complexity and paradox of the world in order to govern it.
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Rhetoric-Reaction-Perversity-Futility-Jeopardy/dp/067476868X/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246707264&sr=1-8"]Amazon.com: The Rhetoric of Reaction: Perversity, Futility, Jeopardy (9780674768680): Albert O. Hirschman: Books[/ame]
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml
"Disparate conservatives share a resistance to change and acceptance of inequality, the authors said. Hitler, Mussolini, and former President Ronald Reagan were individuals, but all were right-wing conservatives because they preached a return to an idealized past and condoned inequality in some form. Talk host Rush Limbaugh can be described the same way, the authors commented in a published reply to the article."
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
can we discuss the issue without reference to partisan hackery?.....
Mott the Hoople
Sweet Jane
Wow, worst case of psychological projection I've ever seen. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! LOL
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
???...I am prepared to engage in honest debate with you or anyone else....as I recall, it's always been you that has run from our conversations so far.....
midcan ignores the discussion of fascism based upon it's characteristics and instead tries to approach the issue with quasi-intellectual attempts to twist the Bush administration into conformity with fascism......
Don't forget the links to books he's never read.