Abortion

WoLong

WoLong

Verified User
I'd be interested in hearing any credible science that suggests that an unborn is anything other than a human being at any point of development

Black's Law Dictionary 9th edition, Person: A human being.

Nealis v. Baird, 996 P.2d 438, 453 (Okla. 1999) “Contemporary scientific precepts accept as a given that a human life begins at conception.” (citing KEITH L. MOORE & T.V.N. PERSAUD, THE DEVELOPING HUMAN 14 (5th ed. 1993); SUSAN TUCKER BLACKBURN & DONNA LEE LOPER, MATERNAL, FETAL AND NEONATAL PHYSIOLOGY: A CLINICAL PERSPECTIVE 49 (1992); MICHAEL R. HARRISON ET AL., THE UNBORN PATIENT: PRENATAL DIAGNOSIS AND TREATMENT 14 (1984); DALE RUSSELL DUNNIHOO, M.D., PH.D., FUNDAMENTALS OF GYNECOLOGY AND OBSTETRICS 286–99 (1990)

"an unborn child is a human being from conception is “supported by standard textbooks on embryology or human biology”
T.W. SADLER, LANGMAN’S MEDICAL EMBRYOLOGY (John N. Gardner ed., 6th ed. 1990.

"The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception."
M. Allen et. al., "The Limits of Viability." New England Journal of Medicine. 11/25/93: Vol. 329, No. 22, p. 1597.

"Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being—a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings." John C. Fletcher, Mark I. Evans, "Maternal Bonding in Early Fetal Ultrasound Examinations," New England Journal of Medicine, February 17, 1983.

"Not only is it a life, but, by its intrinsic biological nature, it is a human life from the moment of conception, for “it can be nothing else.”
E. BLECHSCHMIDT, THE BEGINNING OF HUMAN LIFE,]16–17

" A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual." Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.(Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.



T.W. SADLER, LANGMAN’S MEDICAL EMBRYOLOGY (John N. Gardner ed., 6th ed. (1990): "the proposition that an unborn child is a human being from conception is “supported by standard textbooks on embryology or human biology"

(“Contemporary scientific precepts accept as a given that a human being's life begins at conception.”
KEITH L. MOORE & T.V.N. PERSAUD, THE DEVELOPING HUMAN 14 (5th ed. 1993)
SUSAN TUCKER BLACKBURN & DONNA LEE LOPER, MATERNAL, FETAL AND NEONATAL PHYSIOLOGY: A CLINICAL PERSPECTIVE 49 (1992)
MICHAEL R. HARRISON ET AL., THE UNBORN PATIENT: PRENATAL DIAGNOSIS AND TREATMENT 14 (1984)
DALE RUSSELL DUNNIHOO, M.D., PH.D., FUNDAMENTALS OF GYNECOLOGY AND OBSTETRICS 286–99 (1990)

Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, HUMAN EMBRYOLOGY & TERATOLOGY , (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55. "Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human being is thereby formed"

E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig, PATHOLOGY OF THE FETUS AND THE INFANT, 3d ed. (Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975), vii. "Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new human being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition."

M. Allen et. al., "The Limits of Viability." New England Journal of Medicine. 11/25/93: Vol. 329, No. 22, p. 1597 "The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception."

John C. Fletcher, Mark I. Evans, "Maternal Bonding in Early Fetal Ultrasound Examinations," New England Journal of Medicine, February 17, 1983."Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being—a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings."

E. BLECHSCHMIDT, THE BEGINNING OF HUMAN LIFE 16–17 (1977) "Not only is it a life, but, “by its intrinsic biological nature,” it is a human life from the moment of conception, for “it can be nothing else."

Carlson, Bruce M. Patten, Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3); "Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, as an individual member of that species."

Keith L. Moore and T.V.N. Persaud, The developing Human 6th ed 2;" :Zygote: this cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). "

Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. "[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote marks the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."

Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55. Human Embryology & Teratology "Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human being is thereby formed... The zygote ... is a unicellular human being... "The ill-defined and inaccurate term pre-embryo, which includes the embryonic disc is not used in this book."
 
it can not live if it is taken frim the womb.

That womb belongs to a completely formed human being.

You dont have the right to tell that completely formed human being what YOU will allow to be done to the INSIDES of her very own flesh.


No mommy no baby.


get it
 
evince said:
it can not live if it is taken frim the womb.

That womb belongs to a completely formed human being.

You dont have the right to tell that completely formed human being what YOU will allow to be done to the INSIDES of her very own flesh.


No mommy no baby.


get it
Click to expand...
There is a hierarchy of rights, and the right to life trumps every other right. Simply because an unborn is growing in a mother's body does not give her the right to end its life. The law already forbids everyone in this country from taking life, I fail to see why you think a pregnant woman has the right to kill.
 
evince said:
she has a right to control what happens insude her own body.

You dont
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I am all for letting people do whatever they will as long as it doesn't violate the rights of others. People do not own their own bodies, and do not have a 'right to control what happens inside it.' Regardless, the right to life trumps every other right.
 
Oh, goody! Is this another sock puppet or another crazy zealot?

An embryo does not become a living creature until the umbilical cord is cut and it is able to sustain it's own life.
 
How about we take another aproach to protecting what you see as full rights owning person who ends up in an unwilling uterous.


You snip EVERY males testicular sperm delivery tube and make sure no little guys get into unwilling uterous'.


That is how you control your part of the bargain.
 
Howey said:
Oh, goody! Is this another sock puppet or another crazy zealot?

An embryo does not become a living creature until the umbilical cord is cut and it is able to sustain it's own life.
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Interesting theory. Now provide some credible science supporting that being independent is a prerequisite to being a legal Person.
 
WoLong said:
I am all for letting people do whatever they will as long as it doesn't violate the rights of others. People do not own their own bodies, and do not have a 'right to control what happens inside it.' Regardless, the right to life trumps every other right.
Click to expand...


Fuck you
 
you want rude?

you will get it when you threaten me with your claimed ability to dig arrround INSIDE my body.

fuck you
 
What about when the fetus is out of the other body, what then?
When is it to be considered a life?
What qualifies as the moment life begins?

Barbera boxer says the non living thing can be terminated at any point until it gets home from the hospital.
Is that the general opinion of all liberals?
Arrival at home is the moment of birth?
That's when life begins?
 
when you can adopt a fetus and invent a artifiscial womb you can adopt unwanted fetuses.

Until then the fully grown woman human gets the right to deside when she harbors a fetus inside her very own flesh.


Until then fuck off
 
But what about when it is outside of the woman, what then?
In that period between the fetus being outside of the woman's body entirely and it being born?
Who decides then whether to abort or not?
 
evince said:
it can not live if it is taken frim the womb.

That womb belongs to a completely formed human being.

You dont have the right to tell that completely formed human being what YOU will allow to be done to the INSIDES of her very own flesh.


No mommy no baby.


get it
Click to expand...

That is a fallacious argument and here is why. Can a baby that is born live on its own? It needs some sort of help, preferably the mother to survive. Your logic seems to be predicated on the notion that since teh baby cannot survive on its own the mother gets to determine whether it lives or not. Does that mean she gets to determine if it lives or not five seconds after the baby exits the vaginal opening? The baby can't survive on its own then.

Please clarify
 
evince said:
she has a right to control what happens inside her own body.

You dont
Click to expand...

Doesn't she also have the RESPONSIBILITY to control what is placed inside her own body? That being the penis that expels said seminal fluid which contains the genetic material in which a human life is formed. If a woman is completely adamant about not being pregnant shouldn't she avoid the activity that leads to said pregnancy?

For example, I don't want to be crack addict. Therefore, I do not do crack. I don't look for safe ways to do crack. I just don't do it

I don't want to die from a lightning strike, therefore I do not stand in water when there is a thunderstorm.

Do you understand the concept?
 
Like everything else I have my own unique perspective on this.

Is abortion ok? No. Letting science decide at what stage a baby becomes a baby is only scientist opinion. I believe in a womans right to choose but I don't agree with a womans right to choose to end a separate life.

The fact is both parties can win here if they put their heads together. Everyone should have easy access to birth control, the morning after pill and condoms. Yes Righty's, this means you have to cover it in taxes. And yes it will be a compromise religion will have to debate. Contraceptives are not baby killers, they are preventers. Saying contraceptives kill babies is like saying every time a woman rags she is killing a baby. We need to take a better look at adoptive services because bad people are able to get kids when possible good parents are getting denied. Then, sorry Lefties, we need to make abortion illegal. It shouldn't matter because abortion would be obsolete at this point.

The fact is we need the ability to control birth. The Right Wing always has it's head in the clouds thinking people need to be accountable for their own decisions. But what happens when that kid grows up with an unfit parent who didn't want the child and neglected it. It's raised uneducated. It ends up on welfare because it has no experiences. It eventually shoots someone (all parties are saying gun violence is an educational issue mostly). It's the reason "Freakonomics" discussed the large drop in violence around 18 years after abortion was deemed legal
 
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