An Unwinnable War - Washington Needs an Endgame in Ukraine | Foreign Affairs

Scott

Verified User
I just finished reading the Foreign Affairs article with the same name as this thread written by Samuel Charap. I certainly don't agree with a lot of it, but I do strongly agree with Charap's belief that Washington needs to start thinking about negotiating a way out of this hot war and at least transitioning it to a cold one, such as the armistice between North and South Korea brokered around 70 years ago. I'll just quote the ending, since I have some disagreements with the introduction. I actually even disagree with some of the conclusion- I believe that Crimea's referendum to join Russia back in 2014 was legitimate and should be respected, and I also think that much if not all of the territory that Russia now holds may well be for the best, given the various refendums that have been held there and the claimed results that they all voted to join Russia. And I also believe that the U.S. should stop supplying weapons and training to Ukraine immediately and focus on its domestic issues, of which it has many. But I think the rest of Charap's conclusion is on track.

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June 5, 2023

[snip]

An endgame premised on an armistice would leave Ukraine—at least temporarily—without all its territory. But the country would have the opportunity to recover economically, and the death and destruction would end. It would remain locked in a conflict with Russia over the areas occupied by Moscow, but that conflict would play out in the political, cultural, and economic domains, where, with Western support, Ukraine would have advantages. The successful reunification of Germany, in 1990, another country divided by terms of peace, demonstrates that focusing on nonmilitary elements of the contestation can produce results. Meanwhile, a Russian-Ukrainian armistice would also not end the West’s confrontation with Russia, but the risks of a direct military clash would decrease dramatically, and the global consequences of the war would be mitigated.

Many commentators will continue to insist that this war must be decided only on the battlefield. But that view discounts how the war’s structural realities are unlikely to change even if the frontline shifts, an outcome that itself is far from guaranteed. The United States and its allies should be capable of helping Ukraine simultaneously on the battlefield and at the negotiating table. Now is the time to start.

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Full article:
An Unwinnable War - Washington Needs an Endgame in Ukraine | Foreign Affairs
 
The children who run American foreign policy got caught not having the first clue what is going on as they exported misery and death, and there's a new sheriff in town (China).

Buckle Up.
 
Yes boys and girls.....choosing to live in FantasyLand is painful. You deserve what is coming but I dont.
 
Hawkeye the Wise, telling the truth without fear or favor. If this is a problem for you then go fuck youself, you should be ashamed of what you allowed yourself to become. Did you even try?
 
The children who run American foreign policy got caught not having the first clue what is going on as they exported misery and death, and there's a new sheriff in town (China).

Buckle Up.

China's power does seem to be on the rise, especially since it's not financing either side in the Ukraine war, not to mention the BRICS initiative. But I think American Foreign policy still has a chance of at least mitigating future damage.
 
China's power does seem to be on the rise, especially since it's not financing either side in the Ukraine war, not to mention the BRICS initiative. But I think American Foreign policy still has a chance of at least mitigating future damage.

I look forward to you wising up.
 
It is not a battle of narratives you ignorant coward MotherFuckers......there is reality, and there is fantasy.

Till you can tell the difference you are not just useless, you are a danger to others.

GET EDUCATED!
 
I just finished reading the Foreign Affairs article with the same name as this thread written by Samuel Charap. I certainly don't agree with a lot of it, but I do strongly agree with Charap's belief that Washington needs to start thinking about negotiating a way out of this hot war and at least transitioning it to a cold one, such as the armistice between North and South Korea brokered around 70 years ago. I'll just quote the ending, since I have some disagreements with the introduction. I actually even disagree with some of the conclusion- I believe that Crimea's referendum to join Russia back in 2014 was legitimate and should be respected, and I also think that much if not all of the territory that Russia now holds may well be for the best, given the various refendums that have been held there and the claimed results that they all voted to join Russia. And I also believe that the U.S. should stop supplying weapons and training to Ukraine immediately and focus on its domestic issues, of which it has many. But I think the rest of Charap's conclusion is on track.

**
June 5, 2023

[snip]

An endgame premised on an armistice would leave Ukraine—at least temporarily—without all its territory. But the country would have the opportunity to recover economically, and the death and destruction would end. It would remain locked in a conflict with Russia over the areas occupied by Moscow, but that conflict would play out in the political, cultural, and economic domains, where, with Western support, Ukraine would have advantages. The successful reunification of Germany, in 1990, another country divided by terms of peace, demonstrates that focusing on nonmilitary elements of the contestation can produce results. Meanwhile, a Russian-Ukrainian armistice would also not end the West’s confrontation with Russia, but the risks of a direct military clash would decrease dramatically, and the global consequences of the war would be mitigated.

Many commentators will continue to insist that this war must be decided only on the battlefield. But that view discounts how the war’s structural realities are unlikely to change even if the frontline shifts, an outcome that itself is far from guaranteed. The United States and its allies should be capable of helping Ukraine simultaneously on the battlefield and at the negotiating table. Now is the time to start.

**

Full article:
An Unwinnable War - Washington Needs an Endgame in Ukraine | Foreign Affairs

Two big problems: 1. Any Russian terms are unacceptable to Ukraine.
2. Any Ukrainian terms are unacceptable to Russia.
Ukraine is betting the West will continue supplying them. Russia is betting the West will not. The “special military operation” has had a far worse effect on Russia than it has had on the collective West.
So far Ukraine has exceeded all expectations and predictions.
Oh, I know. Russia got Bakhmut. That was a Ukrainian mouse trap.
The definitive book on the “special military operation”: Overreach: The Inside Story of Putin and Russia’s War Against Ukraine

https://www.amazon.com/Overreach-In...?dplnkId=979dcc90-ad1c-4bcf-8d63-dfd3b836feab
 
Two big problems: 1. Any Russian terms are unacceptable to Ukraine.
2. Any Ukrainian terms are unacceptable to Russia.
Ukraine is betting the West will continue supplying them. Russia is betting the West will not. The “special military operation” has had a far worse effect on Russia than it has had on the collective West.
So far Ukraine has exceeded all expectations and predictions.
Oh, I know. Russia got Bakhmut. That was a Ukrainian mouse trap.
The definitive book on the “special military operation”: Overreach: The Inside Story of Putin and Russia’s War Against Ukraine

https://www.amazon.com/Overreach-In...?dplnkId=979dcc90-ad1c-4bcf-8d63-dfd3b836feab

Unless the West is sending troops Ukraine will sign an unconditional surrender.
 
Two big problems: 1. Any Russian terms are unacceptable to Ukraine.

I agree that that's the case right now. I think the author of the article I quoted would probably agree. What he's saying is that the U.S. needs to start working on a consensus with other nations that have been helping Ukraine on a strategy to persuade Ukraine to accept terms that it may not like but are better than continuing this war. This is essentially what happened in the Korean war with its armistice after 3 years of war.

2. Any Ukrainian terms are unacceptable to Russia.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I think it all depends on the terms.

Ukraine is betting the West will continue supplying them.

Agreed. This is where the U.S. and other western nations can exert some pressure. Because the U.S. and other western nations certainly don't -have- to continue supplying Ukraine.

Russia is betting the West will not.

How are you so sure?

The “special military operation” has had a far worse effect on Russia than it has had on the collective West.

From what I've seen, it's the other way around.

So far Ukraine has exceeded all expectations and predictions.

I agree there- when the war started, everyone seemed to think that Russia would win fast. That clearly didn't happen. But I think that Russia learned its lesson and when it lost some ground, its partial mobilization gave it the troops it needed to not only hold the line, but start regaining ground, as it did with Bakhmut recently.

Oh, I know. Russia got Bakhmut. That was a Ukrainian mouse trap.

I'm not sure what you mean by Ukrainian mouse trap, but from what I've read, Zelensky's insistence on trying to keep it for so long basicailly had the effect of greatly diminishing Ukraine's fighting force.

The definitive book on the “special military operation”: Overreach: The Inside Story of Putin and Russia’s War Against Ukraine

https://www.amazon.com/Overreach-In...?dplnkId=979dcc90-ad1c-4bcf-8d63-dfd3b836feab

I have my doubts that it's definitive, especially since it only chronicles the first 6 months of the war. Things were looking a lot better for Ukraine back then.
 
China's power does seem to be on the rise, especially since it's not financing either side in the Ukraine war, not to mention the BRICS initiative. But I think American Foreign policy still has a chance of at least mitigating future damage.
not as long as Biden /Dems / globalist are in power .OR the Republicans go back to before Trump and neocons take over
There are a few like Haley, and Lindsey Graham/McConnell that are still neocons
 
not as long as Biden /Dems / globalist are in power .OR the Republicans go back to before Trump and neocons take over
There are a few like Haley, and Lindsey Graham/McConnell that are still neocons

There is no dissent allowed in Washington....conform to the GroupThink or else you are out.
 
Two big problems: 1. Any Russian terms are unacceptable to Ukraine.
2. Any Ukrainian terms are unacceptable to Russia.
Ukraine is betting the West will continue supplying them. Russia is betting the West will not. The “special military operation” has had a far worse effect on Russia than it has had on the collective West.
So far Ukraine has exceeded all expectations and predictions.
Oh, I know. Russia got Bakhmut. That was a Ukrainian mouse trap.
The definitive book on the “special military operation”: Overreach: The Inside Story of Putin and Russia’s War Against Ukraine

https://www.amazon.com/Overreach-In...?dplnkId=979dcc90-ad1c-4bcf-8d63-dfd3b836feab
no question it was overreach.
Putin should have stuck with recognizing and absorbing the Donbas ( LPR and DPR). He did recognize them, but then split his forces by going after Kyiv. Javelin destroyed his tank assault there

As long as the USA gives Zelensky everything he wants there wont be negotiation even as Ukraine is torn apart piece by piece
 
no question it was overreach.
Putin should have stuck with recognizing and absorbing the Donbas ( LPR and DPR). He did recognize them, but then split his forces by going after Kyiv. Javelin destroyed his tank assault

Ukraine will be neutral, until they do as they must Ukraine continues to be rubblized. .
 
The world is looking at Ukraine and deciding that China is right that America has to go....we have lost any rights we once had through bad behaviour and reckless incompetence.
yep. When the USA actively opposed the Chinese peace plan the world knows who are the paper tiger, it aint China

China is making leaps and bounds with diplomacy ( Iran/KSA deal was astounding) as Biden let the Abraham Accords fall apart. China is the new big economic dog. Not to get political but unless we get trump back who doesnt seek accomodation with China but looks at China a a strategic rival we are doomed.

Which is why getting in to the Ukraine war over Russia was just plain dumb -we even now have weapons shortages because of it. LIke I always said "It's China not Russia" that should have been our focus
 
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