Another scientist telling us we have no free will

B

BidenPresident

Verified User
Sapolsky sums up his position:

You cannot decide all the sensory stimuli in your environment, your hormone levels this morning, whether something traumatic happened to you in the past, the socioeconomic status of your parents, your fetal environment, your genes, whether your ancestors were farmers or herders. … we are nothing more or less than the cumulative biological and environmental luck, over which we had no control, that has brought us to any moment.

https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/determined-a-science-of-life-without-free-will/

Hard to take this stuff seriously. Why write a book? What forced you to write it?!
 
I am frankly inclined to agree with this Sapolsky individual,
and have been, intuitively if not on a scientific level,
expressing similar beliefs for my entire adult life.

It does, after all, make more sense than most other theories.

It requires only cause and effect
without supernatural powers
as with everything else in science and the universe.
 
Pffff. Old news.

The neurological functionality of our brain doesn't allow for free will. It's really only controversial because it impacts so many areas and people don't WANT to admit their decisions are out of their conscious control.
 
Last edited:
ZenMode said:
Pffff. Old news.

The neurological functionality of our brain doesn't allow for free will. It's really only controversial because it impacts so many areas and people don't WANT to admit their decisions are out of their conscious control.
Click to expand...

The fact that people hold their spouse morally accountable for cheating, or their teenager responsible for taking money out of Dad's wallet means that nobody actually believes there is no such thing as free choice. No matter how edgy it sounds in a academic journals.
 
ZenMode said:
Pffff. Old news.

The neurological functionality of our brain doesn't allow for free will. It's really only controversial because it impacts so many areas and people don't WANT to admit their decisions are out of their conscious control.
Click to expand...

What part of the brain prevents free will? Show how smart you are.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
I am frankly inclined to agree with this Sapolsky individual,
and have been, intuitively if not on a scientific level,
expressing similar beliefs for my entire adult life.

It does, after all, make more sense than most other theories.

It requires only cause and effect
without supernatural powers
as with everything else in science and the universe.
Click to expand...

No one mentioned "supernatural powers."
 
Throughout the book, Sapolsky reiterates, like a mantra, his conclusion that there is no free will. All his arguments would imply, if they work, that everything we do is entirely determined, and thus, on his view, there is no free will. Yet, mysteriously, he writes, “This book has two goals. The first is to convince you that there is no free will, or at least that there is much less [italics in text] than generally assumed when it really matters.” I don’t understand. Why “less”, rather than “none,” and what does it mean to suggest that one has at least some “when it really matters”? Perplexing.

https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/determined-a-science-of-life-without-free-will/
 
Cypress said:
The fact that people hold their spouse morally accountable for cheating, or their teenager responsible for taking money out of Dad's wallet means that nobody actually believes there is no such thing as free choice. No matter how edgy it sounds in a academic journals.
Click to expand...

Not having free will doesn't absolve people of responsibility for their actions. Whatever it was (nature/nurture) that made your spouse into a cheater is irrelevant because she's still a cheater. What a lack of free will (if you truly accept the fact that we don't free will, as I do) really means is that you don't have the same anger, hatred or desire for retribution etc that you would otherwise have.
 
Sapolsky’s challenge to compatibilists is to explain how we could be free and responsible, given that this is the specific way nature unfolds, the particular way in which we are determined. The recognition of the previously hidden causes of our behavior and functioning of our brains can issue in a sense of helplessness. We’re not the captains of our ships or the cabin-boys; having fallen off the ship, it is as if we are in a small raft in the ocean, being carried along willy nilly by the currents.

https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/determined-a-science-of-life-without-free-will/
 
ZenMode said:
Not having free will doesn't absolve people of responsibility for their actions. Whatever it was (nature/nurture) that made your spouse into a cheater is irrelevant because she's still a cheater. What a lack of free will (if you truly accept the fact that we don't free will, as I do) really means is that you don't have the same anger, hatred or desire for retribution etc that you would otherwise have.
Click to expand...

Why would I care is someone who robbed me did it because of physical determinism. I want my money back and the person in prison.
 
BidenPresident said:
What part of the brain prevents free will? Show how smart you are.
Click to expand...

There isn't a part that prevents it like a neurological road block or something. Our conscious mind is the last step in all decisions we make. All the true considering/thinking/etc is happening at a level of the brain that we have no visibility or control. Everything we experience molds our brain. Experiences create neurons and connections that make us who we are. That neurological molding is what controls our thoughts and those thoughts determine our actions, but our conscious experience of thinking and deciding is the end of the process, not the beginning.
 
ZenMode said:
Pffff. Old news.

The neurological functionality of our brain doesn't allow for free will. It's really only controversial because it impacts so many areas and people don't WANT to admit their decisions are out of their conscious control.
Click to expand...


Everything in our lives is a series of choices. The choice to go right rather than left can impact our entire lives. The decision to delay 5 minutes before starting a commute may put is in that intersection that kills us, or may keep us from being in it.

Choices made every split second of our lives determine what we are and how we live.

Some blowhard trying to sell a book is irrelevant. We are indeed creatures of free will who shape our own destiny. Other factors influence choices we make, but it is the decisions that shape our lives.
 
ZenMode said:
Not having free will doesn't absolve people of responsibility for their actions. Whatever it was (nature/nurture) that made your spouse into a cheater is irrelevant because she's still a cheater. What a lack of free will (if you truly accept the fact that we don't free will, as I do) really means is that you don't have the same anger, hatred or desire for retribution etc that you would otherwise have.
Click to expand...

"Recall Sapolsky’s claim that hating someone for his behavior is even sadder than hating the sky for storming. What is genuinely sad, however, is that a serious scholar would blur the distinction between the emanations of Hitler and those of the sky. Sapolsky’s elaborate theorizing has made him blind to the difference between thunder and lightning and Sturm und Drang."
https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/determined-a-science-of-life-without-free-will/
 
ZenMode said:
There isn't a part that prevents it like a neurological road block or something. Our conscious mind is the last step in all decisions we make. All the true considering/thinking/etc is happening at a level of the brain that we have no visibility or control. Everything we experience molds our brain. Experiences create neurons and connections that make us who we are. That neurological molding is what controls our thoughts and those thoughts determine our actions.
Click to expand...

Yet you have no evidence for that.
 
BidenPresident said:
Why would I care is someone who robbed me did it because of physical determinism. I want my money back and the person in prison.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Reality is still reality. You had your money stolen and you want it back.

Another example that brings more emotion into play.....

How would you feel if your house was struck by lightning and burned down, and you lost everything... pictures, jewelry, family heirlooms, pets, etc.

Now, how would you feel if your neighbor was mad at you and set your house on fire resulting in the same losses.

Would you feel "anger" toward the lightning? Probably not. Lightning can decide where it strikes. Would you feel "anger" toward your neighbor because, in your mind, you believe he "chose", using his free will, to do what he did?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top