Another scientist telling us we have no free will

I believe most philosophers (perhaps the vast majority) would agree with me that Sapolsky leaves all the major free will issues untouched. I have the feeling, however, that most neuroscientists would think that his book addresses them in a serious and sustained way. How to reconcile the two perspectives is a delicate question. It strongly suggests that philosophers are on Venus, and neuroscientists Mars.

https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/determined-a-science-of-life-without-free-will/
 
ZenMode said:
Exactly. Reality is still reality. You had your money stolen and you want it back.

Another example that brings more emotion into play.....

How would you feel if your house was struck by lightning and burned down, and you lost everything... pictures, jewelry, family heirlooms, pets, etc.

Now, how would you feel if your neighbor was mad at you and set your house on fire resulting in the same losses.

Would you feel "anger" toward the lightning? Probably not. Lightning can decide where it strikes. Would you feel "anger" toward your neighbor because, in your mind, you believe he "chose", using his free will, to do what he did?
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Emotion is not really relevant. I am angry that Trump is still free. I do not want to change his behavior, I want him executed as a traitor.
 
BidenPresident said:
Both. I think about what I am going to write. So, very deliberate.
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You "have" thoughts (meaning thoughts appear in consciousness) about what you're going to write, but you have no visibility or control over what thoughts you're going to have. Your brain is generating thoughts at a level that you are 100% blind to. In fact, every minute of every day your brain is pushing thoughts into your consciousness and you have no idea where they came from because you can't think them before you think them. Sometimes your thoughts are completely off topic and you have no clue where they came from. You're at work, focusing on whatever you're doing and suddenly you have some completely random thought like "I need to mow the yard when I get home. The grass is getting really long. It looks like crap!" or something similar.
 
Uncensored2008 said:
Everything in our lives is a series of choices. The choice to go right rather than left can impact our entire lives. The decision to delay 5 minutes before starting a commute may put is in that intersection that kills us, or may keep us from being in it.

Choices made every split second of our lives determine what we are and how we live.

Some blowhard trying to sell a book is irrelevant. We are indeed creatures of free will who shape our own destiny. Other factors influence choices we make, but it is the decisions that shape our lives.
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The idea behind free will is that we had a choice. So, you chose to get pizza for lunch, but you could have chosen tacos. There's no evidence that we have choice. Decisions are made, but those decisions are the result of activity in our brains that we have absolutely no visibility into. If you were able to rewind the universe, and everything in it, to its exact state when you chose pizza over tacos, you would make the same decision over and over and over indefinitely.
 
ZenMode said:
The idea behind free will is that we had a choice. So, you chose to get pizza for lunch, but you could have chosen tacos. There's no evidence that we have choice. Decisions are made, but those decisions are the result of activity in our brains that we have absolutely no visibility into. If you were able to rewind the universe, and everything in it, to its exact state when you chose pizza over tacos, you would make the same decision over and over and over indefinitely.
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Interesting myth. But you provide no argument or evidence for it. It's more extreme than Greek concept of fate.
 
ZenMode said:
The idea behind free will is that we had a choice. So, you chose to get pizza for lunch, but you could have chosen tacos. There's no evidence that we have choice. Decisions are made, but those decisions are the result of activity in our brains that we have absolutely no visibility into. If you were able to rewind the universe, and everything in it, to its exact state when you chose pizza over tacos, you would make the same decision over and over and over indefinitely.
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But what we mean by free will is that someone thought of both and chose the one. That is a real event. Explaining it away just adds confusion.
 
ZenMode said:
The idea behind free will is that we had a choice.
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I have observed that in the human condition, the freedom many seek above all else is the freedom FROM consequences. This explains why so many yearn to be enslaved under socialism. They may live lives of deprivation, but it won't be their fault, they will be the victim.

Denying that we are the authors of our own destiny is the same pathology, a desire to shirk responsibility for our own choices. "We are not to blame for our failures, it was hormones or red dye, or mommy was mean."

So, you chose to get pizza for lunch, but you could have chosen tacos. There's no evidence that we have choice. Decisions are made, but those decisions are the result of activity in our brains that we have absolutely no visibility into. If you were able to rewind the universe, and everything in it, to its exact state when you chose pizza over tacos, you would make the same decision over and over and over indefinitely.
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We chose everything. Our lives are the cumulation of billions of choices. There is no escaping the fact that WE are responsible for our own outcomes.
 
BidenPresident said:
But what we mean by free will is that someone thought of both and chose the one. That is a real event. Explaining it away just adds confusion.
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If you're talking about making a choice then "you" will have thoughts of different options, yes, and a choice will be made. The question is where the decision comes from.

You say "someone" thought of both. If by someone you mean YOUR brain in YOUR body with YOUR hands and arms, etc then yes, someone (you) thought of both. What would it mean to say "you" made a choice. What is you? Is you your skin? Is you your bones? Is you your brain? What is you/I that is viewed as creating thoughts, weighing options and making a decision?
 
ZenMode said:
If you're talking about making a choice then "you" will have thoughts of different options, yes, and a choice will be made. The question is where the decision comes from.

You say "someone" thought of both. If by someone you mean YOUR brain in YOUR body with YOUR hands and arms, etc then yes, someone (you) thought of both. What would it mean to say "you" made a choice. What is you? Is you your skin? Is you your bones? Is you your brain? What is you/I that is viewed as creating thoughts, weighing options and making a decision?
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I do not know what this is complicated. I read and chose to respond. All I mean by free will.
 
we are nothing more or less than the cumulative biological and environmental luck, over which we had NO control
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I've spent the last 40 years making choices about the environment I want to live in, the friends and relationships I want to have, the social, cultural, and environmental influences I want to expose myself to.
 
BidenPresident said:
I do not know what this is complicated. I read and chose to respond. All I mean by free will.
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Where is the "I' that is considering options, weighing pros and cons, etc? That "I" has to exist for there to be free will, doesn't it? That "I" has to be what is authoring our thoughts and is ultimately making choices/decisions. If there is no I that stands separate from our stream of thought, then there are only thoughts, right?
 
ZenMode said:
Where is the "I' that is considering options, weighing pros and cons, etc? That "I" has to exist for there to be free will, doesn't it? That "I" has to be what is authoring our thoughts and is ultimately making choices/decisions. If there is no I that stands separate from our stream of thought, then there are only thoughts, right?
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No entity need be identified. As I told you before, free will does not imply an entity like a subject.
 
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