Appeasement, blaming America first and other conservative lies

How f'ing ridiculous. Pathetic.

I was going to give some drawn out answer to this, but then I thought, I'm not going to waste my time with this ridiculous straw man argument. Sorry.

That said, I've debated many people, usually on politics and History, well History is usually a discussion, but I can unequivocally say without a doubt, the dumbest people I've ever meet regarding historical matters are certainly on the left. I bet half of you had to google Chamberlin, the other half didn't know Munich was a city, and 99% of you I bet couldn't tell me the reason Hitler wanted the Suddetenland, it's demography, or it's tactical value.
 
How f'ing ridiculous. Pathetic.

I was going to give some drawn out answer to this, but then I thought, I'm not going to waste my time with this ridiculous straw man argument. Sorry.

That said, I've debated many people, usually on politics and History, well History is usually a discussion, but I can unequivocally say without a doubt, the dumbest people I've ever meet regarding historical matters are certainly on the left. I bet half of you had to google Chamberlin, the other half didn't know Munich was a city, and 99% of you I bet couldn't tell me the reason Hitler wanted the Suddetenland, it's demography, or it's tactical value.

You're right larry. Neocons are all history buffs who put this great Iraq truimph into a grand historical context prior to sending scores of Americans to die over there, and the dissent came from people who had to google the Suddetentland. Kudos Larry.
 
'Scores' doesn't fit historical context either, but that was a more or less a 'rant'
 
This is what happens when the latest meme (I know I'm repeating myself from another thread) gets a run. The dumbarses go wild with the word and it loses it meaning and becomes what the dumbarses want it to mean.

Now poor old Neville Chamberlain gets dragged out of his grave and hauled around behind a truck with a McCain bumper sticker.

Sickening.
 
"Personally, I think this is the initial reason for 9/11..our presence in Saudi Arabia...
and then #1 above came to be the catch all motivation for Islamic fanatic terrorism.....
but the bottom line is...ITS NOT OUR FAULT...."

That is EXACTLY what I said you stupid rube. OUR ACTIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST HAVE MOTIVATED THE TERRORISTS. That is ALL I said. You are the one who extrapolated "our fault" out of that; I said that motivation is NOT justification.

Man, are you stupid. What you said above is not different at from what I said. Why do you hate America? Why are you blaming America first?

Fucking idiot; all of you are such fucking idiots.
 
"Personally, I think this is the initial reason for 9/11..our presence in Saudi Arabia...
and then #1 above came to be the catch all motivation for Islamic fanatic terrorism.....
but the bottom line is...ITS NOT OUR FAULT...."

That is EXACTLY what I said you stupid rube. OUR ACTIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST HAVE MOTIVATED THE TERRORISTS. That is ALL I said. You are the one who extrapolated "our fault" out of that; I said that motivation is NOT justification.

Man, are you stupid. What you said above is not different at from what I said. Why do you hate America? Why are you blaming America first?

Fucking idiot; all of you are such fucking idiots.
Exactly what is the purpose of discussing "motivation" of the terrorists?


Those "motivations" (read excuses) OBL and other U.S. hating terrorist organizations were legitimate actions taken by the United States in pursuing our own economic security and/or the economic and physical security of our allies. We can discuss what actions the U.S. took that led to OBL targeting the U.S., but to what end. Our actions have been (not including the invasion of Iraq) legitimate. We stationed troops in Saudi Arabia WITH PERMISSION as part of our response to the invasion of Kuwait. We give economic and military support to Israel. Those are legitimate actions, and there is no reason to change them because some terrorist extremists decide to declare war on us.
 
Exactly what is the purpose of discussing "motivation" of the terrorists?


Those "motivations" (read excuses) OBL and other U.S. hating terrorist organizations were legitimate actions taken by the United States in pursuing our own economic security and/or the economic and physical security of our allies. We can discuss what actions the U.S. took that led to OBL targeting the U.S., but to what end. Our actions have been (not including the invasion of Iraq) legitimate. We stationed troops in Saudi Arabia WITH PERMISSION as part of our response to the invasion of Kuwait. We give economic and military support to Israel. Those are legitimate actions, and there is no reason to change them because some terrorist extremists decide to declare war on us.

That's lesson #2, and deserves another thread.

Lesson #1 was getting hacks like like Bravo to admit that what he has been using to say liberals "blame America first" - namely, that it is American actions in the Middle East which inspire attacks against us - is the truth, and something he believes as well, when you strip away all of the faux patriotism.

That's a big step for 1 thread.
 
The fact is that regardless of what Chamberlain hoped to gain by the Munich Accord, regardless of his motivations for dealing with Hitler, it turned out badly because Chamberlain did not recognize Hitler for the subhuman scum he turned out to be. There are those who point out that the demands made by Germany at the time, seemed "reasonable" from a certain point of view. (OTOH, how would we feel today if Britain made the claim that all English speaking countries belonged under one rule?) But Hitler was NOT "reasonable" - he was a despotic mad man who USED the willingness of England and France to negotiate against them.

Now we come to modern times, and the controversy of how to treat with Islamic extremists. And the answer lies in their very title. Extremists are NOT "reasonable". Their mandate is world wide domination of Islam. What the heck kind of dialog can we hope to have with a people whose most immediate goal is the eradication of one of our allies, and long term goal is our complete subjigation?

The reason for comparing the situation to the lesson learned (or ignored?) from Hitler and WWII is that there are sometime people we must deal with who are NOT reasonable, no matter how reasonable they make themselves appear. Hitler was "reasonable" in his demands. But the problem is his desires for conquest did not end with the demands given him. And the mistake made was not recognizing that fact when Britain and France capitulated to the demands of the Munich Accord.

Likewise, we need to recognize that any dialog with Islamic extremists will only result in demands, which if capitulated to, will only yield additional violence on the part of the extremists, followed by more demands - it is what extremists with long term global domination agendas do. And that is why even trying to "reason" with these terrorists, let alone any HINT of appeasement, would be a grave mistake.



I haven't heard one person ever suggest negotiating with, or appeasing al qaeda. This is the mother of all strawmen.

What millions of muslims are pissed about, is our decades long support and our policy of propping up relatively unpopular muslim dictators and despots. It's got nothing to do with negotiating with al qaeda, it has to do with reality.


If we're going to prop up unpopular, despotic dictators in a bargain with the devil, we're going to piss a lot of people off. That's a fact.

If, however, we end our reliance on the oil these dictators sit atop, we might defuse that wellspring of animosity that exists in the muslim world.
 
"Personally, I think this is the initial reason for 9/11..our presence in Saudi Arabia...
and then #1 above came to be the catch all motivation for Islamic fanatic terrorism.....
but the bottom line is...ITS NOT OUR FAULT...."

That is EXACTLY what I said you stupid rube. OUR ACTIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST HAVE MOTIVATED THE TERRORISTS. That is ALL I said. You are the one who extrapolated "our fault" out of that; I said that motivation is NOT justification.

Man, are you stupid. What you said above is not different at from what I said. Why do you hate America? Why are you blaming America first?

Fucking idiot; all of you are such fucking idiots.

And YOU neglect the final words of my post because it suits you to take my words out of context....

If it is their insane belief that U.S. foreign policy is an attack on Islam, its lands, and its believers, that is totally THEIR delusion....
I don't give a shit if they used the color of our flag, or the taste of our cigars for motivation, or anything else...its irrelevant...

No matter what insane belief they used as motivation, no blame can be placed at our doorstep "for motivating them"...just as I cannot place your ignorant rants unto the backs of all Dims and liberals.......In plain English...WE DIDN"T MOTIVATE THEM, they choose an excuse ....to explain their actions..
 
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there you have it .

The cons say we should never have to think about the repercussions of our actions.

We can do what ever we want and fuck the rest of the world and waht they think and how they are effected. Its all there fault anyway.


The childessness that the neocon outlook requires is just too evident.
 
And just to make it clear...my omission in my post gave you the wrong impression...

"Personally, I think this is initial reason OBL GAVE for 9/11..our presence in Saudi Arabia...

In my haste I neglected to make that clear....that is what I meant in the first place...
 
there you have it .

The cons say we should never have to think about the repercussions of our actions.

We can do what ever we want and fuck the rest of the world and waht they think and how they are effected. Its all there fault anyway.


The childessness that the neocon outlook requires is just too evident.

Here deshrag....sit on this....


Our actions all over the world have affected hundreds of millions of people.....

They aren't starving as much as they would have without our charity and help
They share in our inventions, from transistors and microchips to computers and medicine to give them better lives...
Some enjoy democracy and freedom the would not have been possible without us

We've had a profound affect throughout the world....thats why I'm so very proud to be an American, to have served my country, etc....

I can't fathom what it is that makes asses like you hate your own country...
and not even realize it....mental illness of some sort I suppose...
 
I don't give a shit if they used the color of our flag, or the taste of our cigars for motivation, or anything else...its irrelevant...

No matter what insane belief they used as motivation, no blame can be placed at our doorstep "for motivating them"...just as I cannot place your ignorant rants unto the backs of all Dims and liberals.......In plain English...WE DIDN"T MOTIVATE THEM, they choose an excuse ....to explain their actions..



I understood you perfectly.

We never have to stop and think about the repercussions of our actions because its everyone elses fault not ours.

Childlike views of the world and others just like Bush.
 
I haven't heard one person ever suggest negotiating with, or appeasing al qaeda. This is the mother of all strawmen.

What millions of muslims are pissed about, is our decades long support and our policy of propping up relatively unpopular muslim dictators and despots. It's got nothing to do with negotiating with al qaeda, it has to do with reality.


If we're going to prop up unpopular, despotic dictators in a bargain with the devil, we're going to piss a lot of people off. That's a fact.

If, however, we end our reliance on the oil these dictators sit atop, we might defuse that wellspring of animosity that exists in the muslim world.
What you have heard is the proposal to open dialog with Hamas and other terrorist organizations. To what end is this dialog? What purpose of talking if not to ask what they want. And what purpose of asking what they want if not to entertain the idea of giving in to some of those demands? The idea of pointing out the errors made by Chamberlain prior to WWII is to point out that some are not worth a dialog because they are all demand and no compromise. At best they need a monologue: straighten up or get your butts kicked.

Ponting out our dependence on ME oil well and good. But what do we do in the mean time? The fact is we ARE dependent on oil, as are the vast majority of our allies. We faced an oil crisis in the 70s, and no one did a damned thing about or dependence on oil imports. We just waited until the economy adjusted to the price of oil and continued to increase our dependence on oil imports. Where was our worry about angering "millions of Muslims" then?

In fact, most of our allies are more dependent on ME oil than we are, since most of our imports come from other places. And another fact is, with the exception of our manipulating Saddam into power to counter Iran, the existence of the dictators in the ME has nothing to do with the U.S. We even tried supporting the Shaw of Iran, who got his butt kicked out in favor of a much WORSE ruler. The only way we are "supporting" despotic dictators is the fact we buy oil from them. Of course, if we were to stop, the same dictators would remain in power because others are also buying their oil in quantities far greater than we are.

Yet others are not being targeted for their dependence on ME oil, whose purchases are also supporting those self same dictators. Care to explain that?

And talking of strawmen arguments, can you point to one manifesto, release or video from AlQueda or others that complain about our support of dictators in the ME? No, their complaint is how we affect the area with our money (ie: buying oil) and the resulting cultural influence (ie: some of the things we buy oil with) and our continued support of Israel. The only complaint about which despots we support is we are not supporting THEIR despots. In case you have not noticed, the people attacked us are extremists who are following an agenda of global domination of Islam.

Yes we have pissed off millions of Muslims. But we are not fighting all of Islam. We have, through the years, pissed off millions of Europeans. (And the actions of other contries have pissed of millions of Americans - it's part of sharing the same planet.) But I do not remember Europeans forming terrorist cells and blowing up our buildings. Being pissed off is not running around killing innocent people to make a political point. Millions of Muslims - whether they are oissed off at us or not - are not our enemy. Only the extremists are.

(Our occupation of Iraq is making an enemy of some non-extremists, but our PREVIOUS actions did nothing of the kind. We had not invaded Iraq when we were attacked on 9/11/01, or any other attacks prior to March of 2003.)

The enemy we ARE fighting are the ones who would depose the very dictators we support by buying their oil, and instill their own version of Islam on the region like the Taliban did in Afghanistan. And when it comes to the REAL enemy, if you think not buying their oil is going to change their minds about us, you need to take off the rose colored glasses and take a good hard look at the reality you are supposedly pointing at. "Talking" with the likes of those responsible for international terrorism has no practical purpose, any more than talking with Hitler would have done any good.
 
Well I would bet.............

I don't give a shit if they used the color of our flag, or the taste of our cigars for motivation, or anything else...its irrelevant...

No matter what insane belief they used as motivation, no blame can be placed at our doorstep "for motivating them"...just as I cannot place your ignorant rants unto the backs of all Dims and liberals.......In plain English...WE DIDN"T MOTIVATE THEM, they choose an excuse ....to explain their actions..



I understood you perfectly.

We never have to stop and think about the repercussions of our actions because its everyone elses fault not ours.

Childlike views of the world and others just like Bush.


Dollars to donuts that Californias Supreme Court ruling reversing the vote of the majority(60%) of Californias voters against Gay Marriage...will also have a profound effect on terrorism...Islam really frowns on homosexual activity...sure glad I don't live in California...they may be in the crosshairs as we speak!


not to forget this ruling comes at a crucial time in the election cycle...it will most assuredly be a issue AGAIN' during the general election!
 
Why bump? It was a stupid question the 1st time. No, I don't think Chamberlain was correct. Try re-reading what I wrote, and screw your brain on this time.
 
For those who like to point out that U.S. actions in the M.E. have "motivated" (or whatever you want to call it) terrorist attacks against the U.S, answer this question:

What would you have us do differently? Should we have simply allowed Saddam to invade Kuwait - a significant economic ally? Should we just tell Israel they are on their own and withdraw all economic and military support? Because if you want to be so "realistic" about what is behind the Islamic fundamentalist targeting the U.S., the above two points - and others - would be what IS required to change their minds about the U.S. as their enemy.

Would you have US foreign and economic policy set by terrorists or fear of terrorist retaliation?

In short, you can point to the terrorist motivations due to U.S. actions all you want. That does not make what the U.S. has done in the M.E. (prior to invading Iraq - a bone headed action) wrong, ignorant, or otherwise ill considered. And unless you want to advise how we should have handled things differently, talking about what motivated terrorist attacks against the U.S. is a pointless mental exercise. It's like discussing the motivations of a mugger by pointing out his victims are people who withdraw money from ATMs.
MOST of the ME supported our defense of Kuwait and S.A., hell even the Syrian army provided troops for the attack on Iraqi forces.

While I don't advocate that we should have abandoned Israel during the cold war, we should have exersized more control over their behavior. Their demolition of houses that merely belonged to terrorists family members created more terrorists and runs absolutely contrary to the US belief that you are not punished for the sins of your fathers, or other relatives. Israel has often been an oppresive actor in their relations with Arabs that live in their AOI.

NOW...yes we should tell Israel that they are on their own. That short of an aggressive war against them by their neighbors the money taps are off, they can make their own weapons and they can fund their own military. The cold war is over and we really don't need them anymore. It is this very same logic that now allows Daniel Ortega and his Sandinista party to run for and even win political offices in Nicaraqua, We don't have an interest in that part of the world anymore that requires more than diplomatic and some low level covert interference.
 
MOST of the ME supported our defense of Kuwait and S.A., hell even the Syrian army provided troops for the attack on Iraqi forces.
Which is exactly my point. There are those screaming how OBL is using our troops in Saudi as the reason for his attacks. Which is what OBL said. But what does that mean, if anything? In light of his reaction to what we LEGITIMATELY did, are we to "take a lesson" and curb our legitimate interestss according to extremists? If not, why even bring up the whole "we motivated the attacks (but that doesn't mean it's our fault)" load of brain dead garbage.

While I don't advocate that we should have abandoned Israel during the cold war, we should have exersized more control over their behavior. Their demolition of houses that merely belonged to terrorists family members created more terrorists and runs absolutely contrary to the US belief that you are not punished for the sins of your fathers, or other relatives. Israel has often been an oppresive actor in their relations with Arabs that live in their AOI.
And how would you deal with factions and nation states who want your country, and you as a people, completely obliterated? Israel has tried the "play it nice" path several times since the nation was created, at each time play-it-nice has blown up in their face.

And the whole "created more terrorists" crap is SO fucking tiresome. The ONLY action on the part of Israel (or any other target of terrorists) which will NOT "create more terrorists" is to capitulate to the demands of the terrorists. People keep demanding we try to "understand" the motivations of the terrorists. But then they refuse to understand that basic reality of those groups. Terrorists have an extremist agenda, and nothing short of that agenda will ever satisfy them.

NOW...yes we should tell Israel that they are on their own. That short of an aggressive war against them by their neighbors the money taps are off, they can make their own weapons and they can fund their own military. The cold war is over and we really don't need them anymore. It is this very same logic that now allows Daniel Ortega and his Sandinista party to run for and even win political offices in Nicaraqua, We don't have an interest in that part of the world anymore that requires more than diplomatic and some low level covert interference.
How long do you think Israel will be on their own, making their own weapons and funding their own military, before your qualifier comes true. (and don't even DREAM of trying to claim the UN could handle it.) Then due to Israel not having U.S. support in peacetime, their military will not have the strength it has with U.S. support. As such, Israel will much more likely fall, or if not fall, will only survive because the U.S. sends reinforcements from our military.

Israel has survived through having a strong military. That strong military is, admittedly, due in large part to both economic and military material support from the U.S. By having a strong military, Israel has, to date, been able to handle what has been thrown at them WITHOUT the need for the U.S. to send our own into the fray - but only because we have assisted in keeping their military at peak condition. Cutting them off would increase the likelyhood of the eventual need for U.S. military intervention by a factor of a hundred or more.

Additionally, what do you think will happen if Israel does face an enemy invasion, knowing they do not have the conventional forces to win? The consequences of leaving Israel on their own are significantly worse than what is happening now.
 
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