Barstool economics

wanderingbear said:
Why should the poor have to pay taxes on what they dont have. The more you use the monetary system the more you have to pay. Or did you actually think that the money in your pocket actually belongs to you?
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Yes, the money in your pocket is your property.

wanderingbear said:
Thats what a flat tax means. The poor pay the same as the rich.
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No it does not. When in the hell is a poor person going to pay a tax that is a percentage of, say, 1 Million dollars earned?
 
The second thing driving this issue is people want capital gains tax removed which means NO tax on that money. They want capital gains to be declared/treated as something other than income. That's the point and that's what I object to.
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A few things you need to understand. First, rich people who would earn capital gains, don't need the money, they are already wealthy and have everything they need in life. Taxing their capital gains as income, essentially ends their investing and playing around with large sums of capital that might 'gain' something. Why fool with it, if you're rich? When you remove rich people's capital from the economy, it doesn't help anything... prices, jobs, gdp, sales... it all stagnates out because there isn't any money being invested... pumped into the economy by rich people trying to make another buck... all that money is now gone from the economy, and people wonder where their next meal will come from, because it is the rich people who drive everything in a capitalist society.

Taxing capital gains is not the same as taxing income because capital gains is not income. It is the gain on capital invested. You have to have the capital to invest and take the risk to invest it... and you MAY earn a capital gain from it, but you could also lose it all. So the potential gain represents more than a typical income, because you and I don't turn over our bank accounts to our boss each week with the hopes of being re-paid on Friday, and maybe getting more than our original money back.

I read the posts here, and I see a lot of "rich people don't deserve..." and I wonder who the hell made you people the judge of what other individual AMERICANS deserve? How can you possibly KNOW the circumstances of EVERY individual who you consider rich? You cobbled together a bunch of jealous and hateful stereotypes of the wealthy, and this fuels your emotional resentment towards them. You feel as if we could just stick it to the rich bastards some more, we'll have all kinds of money pouring in... but guess what? It doesn't work like that! The more you tax them to 'punish' them, the more your economy tanks, and stagnates... the more discontent the public becomes... it's a cycle!

What Reagan wanted, was a sharp reduction in cap gains, if not, eliminated completely. Enable these rich bastards to turn lose of their money, start investing in stuff, pumping that wealth into the economy in the form of new jobs, increased pay because of demand and competition, and ultimately, and increase in GDP and income tax revenues. Had he gotten that, there is no telling how much our economy could have grown in the 80s and 90s... and it would probably still be growing... but with a Democrat Congress, led by Tip O'Neil, Reagan never got what he wanted.

You socialists can hate on rich people all you like, I tend to take more of a 'concierge' approach... anything I can get you, sir? The last thing I want to do, is discourage them from investing and spending their wealth on capitalist venture! When they spend, we ALL benefit!
 
Dixie said:
A few things you need to understand. First, rich people who would earn capital gains, don't need the money, they are already wealthy and have everything they need in life.
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It’s not just the rich people who should pay capital gains. This is not a “we verses them” argument. Everyone should pay capital gains, regardless.

Taxing their capital gains as income, essentially ends their investing and playing around with large sums of capital that might 'gain' something.
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Nonsense.

Why fool with it, if you're rich?
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Two points. Not everyone who acquires capital gains is rich and I’m the perfect example. I acquired capital gains and I’m definitely not considered rich. The second point is there are always people looking for ways to make money and, in most cases, the more money they have the more they want.

(As a side note think about addicts. The alcoholic will buy a bottle of whiskey and a case of beer and offer his friends a drink. The drug addict will make a sizable score and ask his friends if they’d like a “hit”. Ever been invited to someone’s home on payday and hear them say, “Hey. I just got paid. Would you like $20.00 bucks?”) :)

When you remove rich people's capital from the economy, it doesn't help anything... prices, jobs, gdp, sales... it all stagnates out because there isn't any money being invested.
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That’s why tax on capital gains is necessary and fair. A person with money is not going to buy something just to put money back into the economy. The tax is the money being put back. If the individual desires something they will buy it.

Taxing capital gains is not the same as taxing income because capital gains is not income. It is the gain on capital invested. You have to have the capital to invest and take the risk to invest it... and you MAY earn a capital gain from it, but you could also lose it all. So the potential gain represents more than a typical income, because you and I don't turn over our bank accounts to our boss each week with the hopes of being re-paid on Friday, and maybe getting more than our original money back.
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The money people invest is money they can afford to lose. They wouldn’t be investing it if they needed it for food and shelter.

In some jurisdictions people pay tax on large lottery and casino winnings. Should they be tax-free? After all, they could lose their money which, in most cases, they do.

I read the posts here, and I see a lot of "rich people don't deserve..." and I wonder who the hell made you people the judge of what other individual AMERICANS deserve? How can you possibly KNOW the circumstances of EVERY individual who you consider rich? You cobbled together a bunch of jealous and hateful stereotypes of the wealthy, and this fuels your emotional resentment towards them. You feel as if we could just stick it to the rich bastards some more, we'll have all kinds of money pouring in... but guess what? It doesn't work like that! The more you tax them to 'punish' them, the more your economy tanks, and stagnates... the more discontent the public becomes... it's a cycle!
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Again, nonsense. It has nothing to do with being against the rich. It has to do with fairness. Why should some money be tax-free and other money taxable? One person may work at an hourly paid job to generate income while another may put money into short term investments and use the gains to pay the mortgage and other bills. What’s the difference?

I used part of my lower taxed capital gains to buy a new home while some other guy worked and paid full taxes on his income to buy the home next door to me. How can anyone possibly think that’s fair and equitable and just?

You socialists can hate on rich people all you like, I tend to take more of a 'concierge' approach... anything I can get you, sir? The last thing I want to do, is discourage them from investing and spending their wealth on capitalist venture! When they spend, we ALL benefit!
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It’s not hate. It’s wanting things to be fair. Some people can generate money on which to live and that money is not considered income. That is wrong. The hate is towards the hourly employee. The hate is towards the person who isn’t wealthy enough to generate income that is not classified as income. What could be clearer?


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Dixie said:
A few things you need to understand. First, rich people who would earn capital gains, don't need the money, they are already wealthy and have everything they need in life. Taxing their capital gains as income, essentially ends their investing and playing around with large sums of capital that might 'gain' something. Why fool with it, if you're rich? When you remove rich people's capital from the economy, it doesn't help anything... prices, jobs, gdp, sales... it all stagnates out because there isn't any money being invested... pumped into the economy by rich people trying to make another buck... all that money is now gone from the economy, and people wonder where their next meal will come from, because it is the rich people who drive everything in a capitalist society.

Taxing capital gains is not the same as taxing income because capital gains is not income. It is the gain on capital invested. You have to have the capital to invest and take the risk to invest it... and you MAY earn a capital gain from it, but you could also lose it all. So the potential gain represents more than a typical income, because you and I don't turn over our bank accounts to our boss each week with the hopes of being re-paid on Friday, and maybe getting more than our original money back.

I read the posts here, and I see a lot of "rich people don't deserve..." and I wonder who the hell made you people the judge of what other individual AMERICANS deserve? How can you possibly KNOW the circumstances of EVERY individual who you consider rich? You cobbled together a bunch of jealous and hateful stereotypes of the wealthy, and this fuels your emotional resentment towards them. You feel as if we could just stick it to the rich bastards some more, we'll have all kinds of money pouring in... but guess what? It doesn't work like that! The more you tax them to 'punish' them, the more your economy tanks, and stagnates... the more discontent the public becomes... it's a cycle!

What Reagan wanted, was a sharp reduction in cap gains, if not, eliminated completely. Enable these rich bastards to turn lose of their money, start investing in stuff, pumping that wealth into the economy in the form of new jobs, increased pay because of demand and competition, and ultimately, and increase in GDP and income tax revenues. Had he gotten that, there is no telling how much our economy could have grown in the 80s and 90s... and it would probably still be growing... but with a Democrat Congress, led by Tip O'Neil, Reagan never got what he wanted.

You socialists can hate on rich people all you like, I tend to take more of a 'concierge' approach... anything I can get you, sir? The last thing I want to do, is discourage them from investing and spending their wealth on capitalist venture! When they spend, we ALL benefit!
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Apple, you should really try reading my entire post before you begin to respond. It's annoying that you refuse to do that, and instead, begin firing off rebuttal before you've even read through my points. The bulk of what you had to say in response to me was "nonsense!" Which is simply a closed-minded retort from someone who has no counterpoint to offer.

When we think of capital gains, we generally don't think of poor people having risk capital to invest, and we don't even think of typical middle class people falling into that category, but so what if they do? It doesn't change my point one bit, it reinforces it even more! If cap gains taxes discourage the rich from investing their money, why would a middle class person take the risk with his? The same dynamic is in play either way, it just effects the middle class guy more.

You can holler "nonsense" all you like, the fact remains, rich people already have wealth, you can't take that from them, you can't 'punish' them. You can either discourage or encourage their investments of risk capital into the economy, and you do this through taxation. The more of a tax burden you put on them, the less inclined they are to invest in capital venture.

Yes, rich people generally do like to make money, it's how they got to be rich in the first place, but you seem to think making money is something they HAVE to do, and it's really not. Especially if the risk is high and they aren't going to make as much money because of taxes. You've removed their incentive for making more money! In the process, you have also killed economic growth and prosperity, because it is their investments and money which drive the economy for the rest of us.
 
wanderingbear said:
Thats what a flat tax means. The poor pay the same as the rich.
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There is no single flat tax idea that taxes anyone below the poverty level. Good ones exempt the first 30 to 35k then taxes each and every dollar above that at 17-20 percent. The more you make the more you pay, sort of like it is now, but at a much fairer and lower rate. Also, no deductions which tend to benefit the middle class and wealthy more than the poor. A flat tax is the only fair tax and it would generate more income than taxes do now, and keeps the government out of peoples lives. THis sort of tax code would be 2 pages long.
 
Socrtease said:
There is no single flat tax idea that taxes anyone below the poverty level. Good ones exempt the first 30 to 35k then taxes each and every dollar above that at 17-20 percent. The more you make the more you pay, sort of like it is now, but at a much fairer and lower rate. Also, no deductions which tend to benefit the middle class and wealthy more than the poor. A flat tax is the only fair tax and it would generate more income than taxes do now, and keeps the government out of peoples lives. THis sort of tax code would be 2 pages long.
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Nah... I could fit it on one page....
Flat Tax with standard deduction
It is time for this country to become fiscally responsible. The national debt has increased every fiscal year since 1960. What has happened to the responsibility of the two parties? Both like to point the blame at the other, but in reality neither have been responsible fiscally. It is time for a change. Let’s begin with our tax code. It should be simple enough that the average person can understand it. It should not be filled with thousands of loopholes and deductions. Let us push for the flat tax with a standard deduction and nothing more.

Start with a standard deduction of $30k (adjusted for inflation annually) for each adult and then tax every dollar over that $30k at 20%. This is simple, easy to understand, fair and progressive. It protects the low-income individuals and couples from paying federal income taxes. It provides the middle-income families a lower effective tax rate than the wealthy. This plan would encompass ALL income, including earned income, capital gains and dividend income.

A person making $30k pays an effective rate of 0%.

A person making $50k pays an effective rate of 8%.

A person making $100k pays an effective rate of 14%.

A person making $200k pays en effective rate of 17%.

A person making $1mm pays an effective rate of 19.4%

Everyone has the same deduction and takes it. Which causes the effective tax rate to increase the more you make.

To reduce the national debt I would propose we add an additional temporary bracket to the flat tax. Every dollar over $1 million (again adjusted for inflation annually) would be taxed at 30% rather than 20%. The additional 10% would be mandated to pay down the debt.
It is our responsibility to pay our own way and not dump trillions of dollars of debt on future generations. We need to begin electing leaders that are fiscally responsible. The future of our nation depends upon it. We are our own worst enemy. It will be our ever-increasing debt that leads to our demise. We must act now.
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SmarterThanYou said:
And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.
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We can only hope they do not show up anymore as suggested. If we are, what we presume to be, then let them take their money and go someplace where they do as well. Ain't gonna happen, so we are stuck with greed, aka the rich in many cases.

Myth: The rich get rich because of their merit.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-richmerit.htm


"The conclusion is that, if anything, tax increases on higher-income families are the least damaging mechanism for closing state fiscal deficits in the short run. Reductions in government spending on goods and services, or reductions in transfer payments to lower-income families, are likely to be more damaging to the economy in the short run than tax increases focused on higher-income families. In any case, in terms of how counter-productive they are, there is no automatic preference for spending reductions rather than tax increases."
http://www.cbpp.org/10-30-01sfp.htm

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/phelps2
http://www.bostonreview.net/br21.1/wolff.html
http://www.bostonreview.net/BR25.5/simon.html

Inequality on the March by J. Bradford DeLong
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/delong55


Happy Chanukah and Merry Christmas
 
The rich are that way precisely because of merit.
Education and hard work.
Loser usually hunt out some freak to whine about a few abuses in the system.
 
Superfreak said:
Nah... I could fit it on one page....

Quote:
Flat Tax with standard deduction
It is time for this country to become fiscally responsible. The national debt has increased every fiscal year since 1960. What has happened to the responsibility of the two parties? Both like to point the blame at the other, but in reality neither have been responsible fiscally. It is time for a change. Let’s begin with our tax code. It should be simple enough that the average person can understand it. It should not be filled with thousands of loopholes and deductions. Let us push for the flat tax with a standard deduction and nothing more.

Start with a standard deduction of $30k (adjusted for inflation annually) for each adult and then tax every dollar over that $30k at 20%. This is simple, easy to understand, fair and progressive. It protects the low-income individuals and couples from paying federal income taxes. It provides the middle-income families a lower effective tax rate than the wealthy. This plan would encompass ALL income, including earned income, capital gains and dividend income.

A person making $30k pays an effective rate of 0%.

A person making $50k pays an effective rate of 8%.

A person making $100k pays an effective rate of 14%.

A person making $200k pays en effective rate of 17%.

A person making $1mm pays an effective rate of 19.4%

Everyone has the same deduction and takes it. Which causes the effective tax rate to increase the more you make.

To reduce the national debt I would propose we add an additional temporary bracket to the flat tax. Every dollar over $1 million (again adjusted for inflation annually) would be taxed at 30% rather than 20%. The additional 10% would be mandated to pay down the debt.
It is our responsibility to pay our own way and not dump trillions of dollars of debt on future generations. We need to begin electing leaders that are fiscally responsible. The future of our nation depends upon it. We are our own worst enemy. It will be our ever-increasing debt that leads to our demise. We must act now.
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Well once again I have to say that the idea is great, but I would tax @ 17% with an additional 10% at 1 million for the same reasons you gave. But ultimately the rate would be somewhere that we could all live with.
 
midcan5 said:
We can only hope they do not show up anymore as suggested. If we are, what we presume to be, then let them take their money and go someplace where they do as well. Ain't gonna happen, so we are stuck with greed, aka the rich in many cases.

"The conclusion is that, if anything, tax increases on higher-income families are the least damaging mechanism for closing state fiscal deficits in the short run.
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i refer you to states like new york, where higher tax rates are driving wealthy individuals to move. This does nothing but remove income from the state, therefore eliminating tax dollars from the budget. but i'm sure that you're all for that, right?
 
Dixie said:
Apple, you should really try reading my entire post before you begin to respond. It's annoying that you refuse to do that, and instead, begin firing off rebuttal before you've even read through my points. The bulk of what you had to say in response to me was "nonsense!" Which is simply a closed-minded retort from someone who has no counterpoint to offer.

When we think of capital gains, we generally don't think of poor people having risk capital to invest, and we don't even think of typical middle class people falling into that category, but so what if they do? It doesn't change my point one bit, it reinforces it even more! If cap gains taxes discourage the rich from investing their money, why would a middle class person take the risk with his? The same dynamic is in play either way, it just effects the middle class guy more.

You can holler "nonsense" all you like, the fact remains, rich people already have wealth, you can't take that from them, you can't 'punish' them. You can either discourage or encourage their investments of risk capital into the economy, and you do this through taxation. The more of a tax burden you put on them, the less inclined they are to invest in capital venture.

Yes, rich people generally do like to make money, it's how they got to be rich in the first place, but you seem to think making money is something they HAVE to do, and it's really not. Especially if the risk is high and they aren't going to make as much money because of taxes. You've removed their incentive for making more money! In the process, you have also killed economic growth and prosperity, because it is their investments and money which drive the economy for the rest of us.
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I do read your posts through and comment on certain points.

As for stimulating investments one way is to keep the interest rates low just as they are now. People with money in a savings account at a bank are currently losing money due to cost of living increase/inflation and people with money don't like to lose it so they will invest hoping to make more or, at least, stay even.

No one is talking punishment. I don't know where that idea comes from. They are asked to pay tax on money they receive just as everyone else pays tax. The problem is most poor people obtain their money through working as opposed to investing and money obtained through working is taxed at a higher rate than money obtained through investments/capital gains. It is not fair.

The person with money may not invest, however, their money will decrease in value. That's why people do not put all their money under a mattress.

Keep bank interest rates low and people will invest.
 
apple0154 said:
I do read your posts through and comment on certain points.

As for stimulating investments one way is to keep the interest rates low just as they are now. People with money in a savings account at a bank are currently losing money due to cost of living increase/inflation and people with money don't like to lose it so they will invest hoping to make more or, at least, stay even.

No one is talking punishment. I don't know where that idea comes from. They are asked to pay tax on money they receive just as everyone else pays tax. The problem is most poor people obtain their money through working as opposed to investing and money obtained through working is taxed at a higher rate than money obtained through investments/capital gains. It is not fair.

The person with money may not invest, however, their money will decrease in value. That's why people do not put all their money under a mattress.

Keep bank interest rates low and people will invest.
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Interest rates are lower than they've ever been and people aren't investing. Why do you suppose that is? Why do we see Gold continue to rise on the market? It's because people with money are NOT investing in ANYTHING right now, they are putting their money in security assets, not capital investments. It's fine to "believe" whatever, but the reality IS what it IS... you can't deny reality! We can argue back and forth about what works and what doesn't, but what is currently being done is clearly NOT working! I've given you my opinion as to why, and you can't really refute that, other than to say it is "nonsense" ....but reality, is slapping you upside your goofy liberal head!
 
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