Biden admin justifies Israel’s assault on Gaza hospitals with Israeli ‘intelligence’

Blazed Pascal said:
it must be true if it puts journalists embedded with gaza at risk.
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First, a trivial preposition comment. Gaza is a geographic region, not a person or people. Journalists can embed in a region and/or with people, but not with a region.

Second, journalists are similar to investors in that they voluntarily accept risks to get stories that give them a higher "competitive edge" ROI. Many journalists embed with people who are targets, or embed in areas/regions that are hostile. It's the manifestation of their competition.
 
IBDaMann said:
First, a trivial preposition comment. Gaza is a geographic region, not a person or people. Journalists can embed in a region and/or with people, but not with a region.

Second, journalists are similar to investors in that they voluntarily accept risks to get stories that give them a higher "competitive edge" ROI. Many journalists embed with people who are targets, or embed in areas/regions that are hostile. It's the manifestation of their competition.
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stfu, you niggling jackoffheimer.


the real point is that journalists embedded with terrorist attacks are also terrorists.
 
I wish this technique was new. but it is not. The military has always pointed out this kind of crap to justify attacking cities and people. They know most of the people will buy in. The truth comes out years later when people have forgotten.
 
Tranquillus in Exile said:
Why?
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Perhaps the IDF, in their delight of watching Arabs suffer, seek to ensure all hospitals are shut down. Maybe the IDF can kill some Arab children in the ICU to sort of "round up" their numbers. Maybe it was just a slow week for the IDF. The possibilities are endless.

Tranquillus in Exile said:
If there is no Hamas complex beneath the Al Shifa hospital, why is the IDF wasting their time on it?
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If the IDF can get the hospital to suspend operations then it isn't a waste of their time now is it?

Tranquillus in Exile said:
You need to provide a plausible motive for that.
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Incorrect. The burden lies on the IDF to show military necessity for storming a hospital.
 
Nordberg said:
There are 36 hospitals in Gaza. There are 300 miles of tunnels.
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Hamas knows what they are doing, and has had time to plan it out. Hamas is giving Israel impossible choices, by using civilians as human shields while killing other civilians. If Israel does nothing, Hamas kills civilians. If they attack Hamas, then Israel kills civilians also.

The best solution is to do the best to minimize civilian deaths, while they do the best maximize destruction of Hamas. Unfortunately, the best solution in this case is not very good.
 
Walt said:
Hamas is giving Israel impossible choices, by using civilians as human shields while killing other civilians.
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Absurd. Team Israel keeps chanting this, i.e. "Hamas uses human shields, Hamas uses human shields, ... " ... but they don't, because they can't. The IDF already blasts the fuck out of everybody with air strikes. Hamas can't hide behind human shields if the humans don't serve as shields. Humans should serve effectively as shields, and would, if Israel were waging war legally instead of waging genocide.

The IDF has negated all of Team Israel's claims that Hamas hides behind human shields. Walt, your claim is false. Try again.

Walt said:
If Israel does nothing, Hamas kills civilians.
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If Israel were to attack Iran, the attacks on Israel could be halted. If Israel does not attack Iran, Iran continues to attack Israel and Israeli civilians die. If Israel does not attack Iran and instead decides to perpetrate genocide on civilian Arab Semite noncombatants in Gaza, then Israeli civilians die plus Palestinian civilians die by the thousands ... and Iran continues to attack Israel and even more Israeli civilians die. Guess which option Israel chose?

Walt said:
The best solution is to do the best to minimize civilian deaths,
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That means only one thing: attack the source of the attacks and stop the attacks, i.e. attack Iran. All that Israel will accomplish by perpetrating genocide on the civilian Arab Semite civilians in Gaza is to exterminate Palestinians who never attacked Israel so that Israelis can feel better by quenching their racist thirst.
 
Blazed Pascal said:
yes. ladies and gentlemen. everybody's in on it.

a global theatrics, shot from all angles, complete with real dead bodies, designed to keep you funding those who murder in your name.
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I think I can agree with that. The arms industry certainly makes a lot of money through war.
 
Blazed Pascal said:
Phoenyx said:
Ahh ok :-). Do you know if reporters are actually embedded with Hamas? I mean, I think there's clear evidence that a lot of the "evidence" that the Al Shifa hospital was just propaganda work for the Israeli government, so perhaps could be called "Israeli embedded reporters", but haven't seen anything similar in regards to Hamas.
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well if information indicating that harms them, then yes.
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Who is the "them" you are referring to?
 
Yakuda said:
Phoenyx said:
You're just repeating Isreali propaganda here. American Journalist Chris Hedges wrote a recent article that has something to say on that notion and more:

**
There are big Israeli lies. The obliteration of Gaza and wanton killing of thousands of Palestinians, Israel insists, is a targeted effort to get rid of Hamas rather than a campaign to reduce Gaza to a pile of rubble, carry out mass murder and ethnically cleanse Palestinians.

There are small Israeli lies. Forty beheaded [youtube link in original] babies. Al Shifa Hospital is a “Hamas command center.” A calendar in Arabic on the wall of a hospital, according to IDF Spokesperson, Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari [twitter link in original], is “a guardian [guard] list, where every terrorist writes his name and every terrorist has his own shift guarding the people that were here.” An Israeli actor [twitter link in original] dressed up as a nurse and speaking heavily accented Arabic claims to be Palestinian doctor and to have seen Hamas use civilians as human shields. She says members of Hamas “attacked Al Shifa Hospital” and stole “the fuel and medicine.” Palestinian militants, rather than Israeli tanks, Israel says, are responsible for shelling Al Shifa Hospital. Israel struck a car full of “terrorists” in southern Lebanon, “terrorists” who turned out to be three girls, their mother and grandmother. The explosion at the Al Ahli Hospital was the result of an errant rocket fired by the Palestinians, a claim questioned by The New York Times when it discredited the video based on analysis of its time stamp. Israel said it “responded to the request of the director of Shifa Hospital to allow Gazan citizens who were sheltering in the hospital and who wish to evacuate from Shifa Hospital towards the humanitarian crossing in the Gaza Strip via a secure axis,” a statement Mohammed Zaqout, director general of hospitals in Gaza, said was “false,” adding “we were forced to leave by gunpoint.” Israeli Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus, in a video pilloried by the BBC [youtube link in original], shows viewers a meager stash of automatic weapons in a promotional video that magically increases once foreign reporters arrive for a guided tour. The IDF later deleted it.

**



You can't blame Gaza's problems solely on Hamas. It's had serious problems ever since the Arab-Israeli war of 1948. From Wikipedia's page on the Gaza Strip:

**
During the 1948 Palestine war and more specifically the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, tens of thousands of Palestinian refugees went to the Gaza Strip.[29] By the end of the war, 25% of Mandatory Palestine's Arab population was in Gaza, though it constituted only 1% of the land.[30]
**

According to Wikipedia, its population was estimated at over 2.3 million people in 2022, in an area of only 365 km square. There are a few more densely populated areas in the world, but certainly not in the U.S.:

Maps show the extreme population density in Gaza | CNN

Then you have Israel and Egypt frequently shutting down their borders, making it hard for Gazas to survive, seeing as how they certainly can't be self sufficient and it's hardly surprising that it hasn't been doing well.

Come now Yakuda, we've agreed on other subjects. Do you really think that hurling ad hominem attacks is going to help this discussion?
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The difference between you and me is I have no problem with Israel reducing Gaza to a pile of rubble.
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We certainly do have that difference, yes. Let's get to your explanation...

Yakuda said:
Here is why. The rabid dogs of Hamas have had control of Gaza for 18 fucking years.
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Right off the bat, I have a problem with your explanation. I certainly believe that some in Hamas have done terrible things, but that doesn't mean that the entire organization is therefore "rabid dogs". Hamas certainly have flaws, but I think that anyone who has a decent understanding of the history of Palestine also understands that Hamas (and the Palestinians who compose it) have very legitimate reasons for both being angry and wanting to change the status quo. Then there's also the fact that Hamas was initially supported by Israel's right wing in order to sow dissent within the Palestinian ranks.


Yakuda said:
In 18 years what have they done to make a better life for Palestinians? Has Hamas bombed Israel form Gaza? If Hamas hadnt bombed Israel from Gaza over the last 18 years, is it your claim that Israel would have bombed Hamas?
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I think you need to step back a bit and think of why Hamas has attacked Israel in the past as well as on October 7th. Tell me, have you heard of the Nakba? If not, Wikipedia has a page on it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

Quoting a bit from it:

**
The Nakba (Arabic: النكبة, romanized: an-Nakbah, lit. 'the catastrophe') was the violent displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, and the destruction of their society, culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations.[1] The term is used to describe both the events of 1948, as well as the ongoing occupation of the Palestinian territories (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) and persecution and displacement of Palestinians throughout the region.[2]

The foundational events of the Nakba took place during and shortly after the 1948 Palestine war, including 78% of Mandatory Palestine being declared as Israel, the expulsion and flight of 700,000 Palestinians, the related depopulation and destruction of over 500 Palestinian villages by Zionist militias and later the Israeli army[3] and subsequent geographical erasure, the denial of the Palestinian right of return, the creation of permanent Palestinian refugees, and the "shattering of Palestinian society".[4][5][6][7]
**

I would hope that you can understand how this would anger many Palestinians. Surely, if this were to happen to 700,000 Americans, you don't think they'd just roll over, do you?


Yakuda said:
I get tired of people trying to make a moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas. One of the goals of Hamas is the eradication of Jews from the face of the earth. If that's true, which it is [snip]
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I've seen no evidence of that. As a matter of fact, up until a bit after October 7th, there was actually an informal back channel between Hamas and Israel. The New York Times wrote an article about it last week:

For Years, Two Men Shuttled Messages Between Israel and Hamas. No Longer. | The New York Times

Quoting a bit from the article:

**
By Patrick Kingsley

November 19, 2023

For 17 years, on and off, two men maintained a secret line of communication between Israel and Hamas, the armed Palestinian group that opposes Israel’s existence.

Starting in 2006, Gershon Baskin, an Israeli peace activist based in Jerusalem, and Ghazi Hamad, a senior Hamas official in Gaza, nurtured an informal back channel between officials in Jerusalem and in Gaza, even as each side refused to engage with the other directly.

The men’s relationship survived countless rounds of violence between Israel and Hamas, and helped end several of them.

Even after Oct. 7, when Hamas and its allies raided Israel, killed an estimated 1,200 people and kidnapped roughly 240 others, according to Israeli officials, Mr. Baskin and Mr. Hamad kept in contact, including discussing a deal to release some hostages. As Israeli warplanes pounded Hamas-controlled Gaza, killing more than 10,000 Gazans according to Gaza’s health authorities, their unlikely relationship endured.

Then, something snapped.

The impact of the Hamas-led attack has shattered the idea that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict could be perpetually contained without being resolved. It has since displaced more than 1.5 million, mostly in Gaza, and brought the Middle East to the brink of a regional war.

And one of its more intimate consequences has been the falling out between Mr. Baskin and Mr. Hamad.

On Oct. 24, Mr. Hamad began publicly justifying Hamas’s assault and calling for additional attacks. “The existence of Israel is what causes all that pain, blood and tears. It is Israel, not us,” he said in a televised interview, adding, “Everything we do is justified.”

A week later, Mr. Baskin watched the interview, aghast.

“I think you have lost your mind and you have lost your moral code,” he wrote in a text message to Mr. Hamad that Mr. Baskin later showed to The New York Times.

“I never want to speak to you again,” Mr. Baskin added.

Throughout their relationship, a long-term truce, if not a lasting peace, between Israel and Hamas seemed plausible; it was an idea that the two had personally discussed.

Not anymore.

On Oct. 24, Mr. Hamad, once considered a Hamas moderate, said he wanted to annihilate Israel. And Mr. Baskin, a leftist, has joined the Israeli mainstream in calling for the removal of Hamas.

“In my mind, they can no longer exist as a government next to Israel,” Mr. Baskin said in an interview.

“His stance has changed,” Mr. Hamad said in a separate interview. And, Mr. Hamad added, “He sensed how I changed.”

The two men first encountered each other in July 2006, during one of the first full-scale conflicts between Hamas and Israel. Hamas had captured an Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, prompting Israel to invade the territory.

Seeking to negotiate a cease-fire but unable to call Israeli leaders directly, a Hamas spokesman instead phoned a well-known Israeli peace activist.

The spokesman was Mr. Hamad. The activist was Mr. Baskin. And Mr. Hamad immediately charmed Mr. Baskin by declining to speak in Arabic or English.

“I like to speak Hebrew,” Mr. Hamad said, by Mr. Baskin’s recollection.

[snip]

Azzam Tamimi, a historian of Hamas who knows Mr. Hamad well, said that Mr. Hamad might have been shocked by the destruction caused by Israel’s counterattack. Although Mr. Hamad had left Gaza for Lebanon weeks before the war, many of his relatives and colleagues are still inside the enclave.

“Suddenly, he lost family members, he lost many of his friends,” Mr. Tamimi said. “Probably that’s the issue.”
**
 
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Why doesn't Hamas come out on the field of battle and face IDF mano a mano, instead of hiding behind civilians?

The Ukrainians do not hide behind civilians, even when they were outgunned by Russia.

HAMAS was all eager to kill Israelis face to face a month ago, to the extent they plotted and executed a sneak attack on unarmed civilians at a music festival.

Before blaming all civilian deaths on IDF, we have to first ask why Hamas are hiding behind civilians instead of coming out and fighting IDF directly.
 
Yakuda said:
The difference between you and me is I have no problem with Israel reducing Gaza to a pile of rubble.
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2.4 million people living in rubble is a very bad thing. There might be no better alternative, but any sane person has a problem with it.
 
Cypress said:
Why doesn't Hamas come out on the field of battle and face IDF mano a mano, instead of hiding behind civilians?

The Ukrainians do not hide behind civilians, even when they were outgunned by Russia.

HAMAS was all eager to kill Israelis face to face a month ago, to the extent they plotted and executed a sneak attack on unarmed civilians at a music festival.

Before blaming all civilian deaths on IDF, we have to first ask why Hamas are hiding behind civilians instead of coming out and fighting IDF directly.[/QUOTE

Mano mano huh? Hamas has a fraction of the troops Israel does. They are not hiding behind anyone. They are in tunnels.
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Nordberg said:
Hamas has a fraction of the troops Israel does.

They are not hiding behind anyone.

They are in tunnels.
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I don't understand the sentiment that Hamas is willing to come out and fight toe to toe only when it's opponents are unarmed civilians.

Ukraine was widely thought on Feb. 24, 2022 to be massively outgunned, their quick defeat was practically a foregone conclusion, but they took to the field of battle to fight face to face.

27 sovereign stateshttps://apnews.com/article/european...uman-shields-2c0d1c04cb38fc4acce37d8d624e1a3f of the European Union have accused Hamas of using human shields, and I find it hard to believe that 27 European countries have been easily duped by Israeli propogada
 
Phoenyx said:
Biden admin justifies Israel’s assault on Gaza hospitals with recycled Israeli ‘intelligence’
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As Israel assaults Gaza’s Shifa Hospital, the Biden administration claims that “Hamas does use hospitals” as military bases. Once again, Washington appears to be relying on dubious Israeli propaganda rather than independent analysis.
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My interest is not what Biden parrots but what the Team Israel thought collective is parroting at any given moment. I laughed at the propaganda staple, i.e. "Hamas hides behind human shields!" that is used to fill in any gaps that arise in a discussion. It's an absurd remark. The IDF kills all human shields and all civilian noncombatants alike, therefore there is no such thing as a "human shield" where Israel is concerned. Lately I found myself chuckling at the insistence that Hamas was using both the Al-Shifa hospital and an IDF-destroyed apartment building "to store supplies." I realized that the IDF now had license to kill hundreds of civilian Arab Semite noncombatants at a time by destroying large residential structures when they were full of people, by noting that there were things amongst the rubble, and declaring that "Hamas was using the structure to store supplies." Upon uttering such an absurd assertion, someone else can immediately follow up with "Hamas is known for hiding behind human shields" and yet a third can shout indignantly "Israel has a right to defend itself!" ... and the show's o-vah! Move along, move along, there's nothing to see here.
 
Cypress said:
I find it hard to believe that 27 European countries have been easily duped by Israeli propogada
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We all know that it couldn't be that the 27 countries in question are playing politics, because you are far too smart to be fooled by that, right?
 
Cypress said:
Why doesn't Hamas come out on the field of battle and face IDF mano a mano, instead of hiding behind civilians?
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It figures that you would not only fall for the propaganda but that you would ask something as stupid as "why don't the handful of Hamas terrorists pull a Scarface and taunt the entire IDF shouting 'I'm still standing!'?"


Cypress said:
HAMAS was all eager to kill Israelis face to face a month ago, to the extent they plotted and executed a sneak attack on unarmed civilians at a music festival.
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That's not fighting face-to-face. Hamas militants are all cowards. They are a terrorist cell-for-hire and the Ayatollah is the client.

Cypress said:
Before blaming all civilian deaths on IDF, we have to first ask why Hamas are hiding behind civilians instead of coming out and fighting IDF directly.
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Stupid question. The concept of "human shields" does not come into play when the IDF is the military in question. The IDF just kills civilians who get in the way. Hamas can't use civilians as human shields.
 
 
 
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