British and other NATO troops already in Ukraine

S

Scott

Verified User
Interesting article I just read from antiwar.com, thought some might find it interesting and perhaps worth a constructive comment or 2...

**
German Military Leak Reveals British Soldiers Are in Ukraine Helping Fire Storm Shadow Missiles

German military officers were also discussing how Taurus missiles could destroy the Kerch Bridge

by Dave DeCamp | March 4, 2024

British soldiers are “on the ground” in Ukraine helping Ukrainian forces fire Storm Shadow missiles, according to a leaked recording of a conversation between German military officers that was published by Russian media.

Germany confirmed the authenticity of the recording, and the British did not dispute the claim. The UK confirmed last week that it had a “small number” of troops inside Ukraine who are “supporting the armed forces of Ukraine.”

[snip]

The Kremlin said that the leaked conversation “makes it clear that plans to carry out strikes inside Russia are under discussion” within the German military.

The leaked recording came after German Chancellor Olaf Scholz suggested British and French troops were inside Ukraine. He made the comments while explaining his reasoning for not supplying Ukraine with the Taurus missiles, saying it would require a German troop presence to match the level of British and French support for Ukraine’s use of the Storm Shadows.

Scholz also said providing that kind of support would make Germany a direct party to the conflict since the Taurus missiles have such a long range and can be used to hit targets deep inside Russia.

The leaked recording also comes after French President Emmanuel Macron stirred an uproar by saying sending NATO troops to Ukraine shouldn’t be ruled out despite the obvious risk of a direct Russia-NATO war, which could quickly turn nuclear. His comments highlighted the fact that the presence of NATO special operations forces inside Ukraine has been an open secret.

Last year, the Discord leaks revealed that as of March 2023, 97 NATO special operations soldiers were inside Ukraine, including 14 Americans, 50 British soldiers, 15 French troops, 17 soldiers from Latvia, and one from the Netherlands.
**

Full article:
German Military Leak Reveals British Soldiers Are in Ukraine Helping Fire Storm Shadow Missiles | antiwar.com

I took a look at the article DeCamp mentions that came from the Kremlin, found it was also quite interesting. It's here:
Kremlin looking forward to results of probe into German military officers’ conversation | tass.com

The subheadline of the above article:
**
According to Dmitry Peskov, the release of the audio of the German military officers’ conversation raises the question as to what extent Olaf Scholz actually exercises control over them
**

These articles are of a feather with the recent New York Times revelations on CIA involvement in Ukraine, of which I made another thread previously, here:
The CIA in Ukraine | justplainpolitics.com
 
Phoenyx said:
Interesting article I just read from antiwar.com, thought some might find it interesting and perhaps worth a constructive comment or 2...

**
German Military Leak Reveals British Soldiers Are in Ukraine Helping Fire Storm Shadow Missiles

German military officers were also discussing how Taurus missiles could destroy the Kerch Bridge

by Dave DeCamp | March 4, 2024

British soldiers are “on the ground” in Ukraine helping Ukrainian forces fire Storm Shadow missiles, according to a leaked recording of a conversation between German military officers that was published by Russian media.

Germany confirmed the authenticity of the recording, and the British did not dispute the claim. The UK confirmed last week that it had a “small number” of troops inside Ukraine who are “supporting the armed forces of Ukraine.”

[snip]

The Kremlin said that the leaked conversation “makes it clear that plans to carry out strikes inside Russia are under discussion” within the German military.

The leaked recording came after German Chancellor Olaf Scholz suggested British and French troops were inside Ukraine. He made the comments while explaining his reasoning for not supplying Ukraine with the Taurus missiles, saying it would require a German troop presence to match the level of British and French support for Ukraine’s use of the Storm Shadows.

Scholz also said providing that kind of support would make Germany a direct party to the conflict since the Taurus missiles have such a long range and can be used to hit targets deep inside Russia.

The leaked recording also comes after French President Emmanuel Macron stirred an uproar by saying sending NATO troops to Ukraine shouldn’t be ruled out despite the obvious risk of a direct Russia-NATO war, which could quickly turn nuclear. His comments highlighted the fact that the presence of NATO special operations forces inside Ukraine has been an open secret.

Last year, the Discord leaks revealed that as of March 2023, 97 NATO special operations soldiers were inside Ukraine, including 14 Americans, 50 British soldiers, 15 French troops, 17 soldiers from Latvia, and one from the Netherlands.
**

Full article:
German Military Leak Reveals British Soldiers Are in Ukraine Helping Fire Storm Shadow Missiles | antiwar.com

I took a look at the article DeCamp mentions that came from the Kremlin, found it was also quite interesting. It's here:
Kremlin looking forward to results of probe into German military officers’ conversation | tass.com

The subheadline of the above article:
**
According to Dmitry Peskov, the release of the audio of the German military officers’ conversation raises the question as to what extent Olaf Scholz actually exercises control over them
**

These articles are of a feather with the recent New York Times revelations on CIA involvement in Ukraine, of which I made another thread previously, here:
The CIA in Ukraine | justplainpolitics.com
Click to expand...
Is there a point to the OP?
 
Russia has the #1 military on the Earth...their best buds are China...together they make 8 times the military gear the West does....most of it better than ours in quality.

Buckle Up.
 
Western Gear is as a rule too heavy, too complicated, breaks down too much and is way way way way way too expensive.

Not fit for purpose the Ukrainians have decided.
 
"U want a piece of us?.....Come get us....or we could talk this out if you were to ever grow up...we are not counting on that happening"
The Russians
 
The military industrial congressional complex project of war in Ukraine has been a disaster, as American Generals turned up not having the first fucking clue, and as western gear turns up not fit for purpose...burning as NATO lost.

No good for sales to say the least.
 
There's half a million Russian troops on sovereign Ukrainian territory, but you never hear the Putin dick suckers complain about that.
 
anonymoose said:
Is there a point to the OP?
Click to expand...

Ofcourse. I even mentioned it in the very first sentence: "Interesting article I just read from antiwar.com, thought some might find it interesting and perhaps worth a constructive comment or 2..."

Since you've responded to the thread, I'd like to ask, did you read any of the articles I mentioned in the opening post? Or at least the parts that I quoted? And if so, what did you think of one or more of them?
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The military industrial congressional complex project of war in Ukraine has been a disaster, as American Generals turned up not having the first fucking clue, and as western gear turns up not fit for purpose...burning as NATO lost.
Click to expand...

That sounds about right.

Hawkeye10 said:
No good for sales to say the least.
Click to expand...

I don't know about that- looks like weapons manufacturers worldwide have been doing quite well. Though I suspect that people are realizing that when it comes to wars like this, some of the simplest weapons are the most important- such as artillery.
 
Cypress said:
There's half a million Russian troops on sovereign Ukrainian territory, but you never hear the Putin dick suckers complain about that.
Click to expand...

Please Cypress, I remember recently saying that you were fairly civilized in your posts and I'm hoping that this can stay this way. I'm hoping that you'd like to have a productive discussion wherein we try to see why we disagree on certain things.

I've dealt with this bit about "sovereign" in another post. I wish I knew where that post was, but put simply, there is a definition of sovereign which basically means the person or state that controls a region. No one disputes who is controlling Russian controlled territory in what was formerly Ukraine.

As far as I'm concerned, the most important issues pertain to why Russia decided to start its military operation in Ukraine and how it can realistically end in the best possible way.

I wrote a thread in the past here on how things started back in late 2022. I see you never participated in it, so perhaps you might find it interesting:
Former Swiss Intelligence Officer blows the whistle on West's Ukraine War Narrative | justplainpolitics.com

As to how it can end, I made a thread that gets into that too, more recently. You -did- participate in that thread, though very briefly. It's here in case you'd like to take a look at it once more:
The War in Ukraine Must End | justplainpolitics.com
 
Phoenyx said:
Ofcourse. I even mentioned it in the very first sentence: "Interesting article I just read from antiwar.com, thought some might find it interesting and perhaps worth a constructive comment or 2..."

Since you've responded to the thread, I'd like to ask, did you read any of the articles I mentioned in the opening post? Or at least the parts that I quoted? And if so, what did you think of one or more of them?
Click to expand...
Nothing really. Except that it’s informative.
It all comes down to this: Is this a just war for Russia, getting involved in another country’s civil war? Putin and his cronies consider Ukraine as being part of Russia. If you accept that then his war is just. If you consider Ukraine as a sovereign country, it’s not.

I have a question for you. What will become of the 70% of Ukrainians that resisted and fought against Russia if Russia is allowed to overrun their country? So far it appears they’d rather continue the fight than find out.
 
Last edited:
Phoenyx said:
As to how it can end, I made a thread that gets into that too, more recently. You -did- participate in that thread, though very briefly. It's here in case you'd like to take a look at it once more:
The War in Ukraine Must End | justplainpolitics.com
Click to expand...
From that post: “ There are only two ways to resolve this situation: restoration of the full linguistic and other rights of the Russian-speaking minority within the borders of the old Ukrainian state or the secession of these regions from Ukraine. Which outcome is realised will be a key subject of the negotiations. Nonetheless, it is clear that any attempt to maintain the Russian-speaking minority within the Ukrainian state while continuing to deprive them of their rights will not succeed, nor will any attempt by Russia to impose another state on the Ukrainian-speaking population of western and northern Ukraine.

All efforts to resolve these issues by military means will continue to be futile and will only result in further intense suffering, above all for the Ukrainian people. These realities will become increasingly obvious if the war continues – which is why it must be brought to a halt as rapidly as possible and negotiations must commence.”

Yet Putin has made clear his maximalist objective of completely subjugating Ukraine by military means.
 
anonymoose said:
Phoenyx said:
Ofcourse. I even mentioned it in the very first sentence: "Interesting article I just read from antiwar.com, thought some might find it interesting and perhaps worth a constructive comment or 2..."

Since you've responded to the thread, I'd like to ask, did you read any of the articles I mentioned in the opening post? Or at least the parts that I quoted? And if so, what did you think of one or more of them?
Click to expand...

Nothing really. Except that it’s informative.
Click to expand...

Well, that's a good start in my book. Certainly better than the catch all "disinformation" that is spouted so much by governments and the mainstream media these days for anything that goes against their narrative.

anonymoose said:
It all comes down to this: Is this a just war for Russia, getting involved in another country’s civil war? Putin and his cronies consider Ukraine as being part of Russia. If you accept that then his war is just. If you consider Ukraine as a sovereign country, it’s not.
Click to expand...

I'm reminded of a line from a movie I really liked, "The English Patient":

**
We're the real countries.
Not the boundaries drawn on maps
the names of powerful men.
**

Ukraine only became a nation a little over 3 decades ago when the Soviet Union broke up. As Putin pointed out in his interview with Tucker Carlson:

**
“During decades, the Poles were engaged in the ‘Polonization’ of this part of the population: they introduced their language there, tried to entrench the idea that this population was not exactly Russians, that because they lived on the fringe (u kraya) they were ‘Ukrainians.’ Originally, the word ‘Ukrainian’ meant that a person was living on the outskirts of the state, near the fringe, or was engaged in border service. It didn't mean any particular ethnic group.
**

Source:
On President Putin's Interview with Tucker Carlson... | Cynthia Chung

That being said, I fully respect the right of many Ukrainians to define themselves as such, regardless of how recent an invention the country they associate with is. The main problem is that Ukrainians frequently had very different ideas as to what it meant to -be- a Ukrainian. Take Crimea, for example. No one ever asked the Crimean people back in 1954 if they wanted to be transferred from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SFSR, but there was certainly a referendum that took place after Euromaidan asking Crimeans if they would like rejoin Russia. The response was almost a unanimous yes, as been documented by Canadian American journalist Eva Bartlett:

Return to Russia: Crimeans tell the real story of the 2014 Referendum and their lives since | Mint Press News

anonymoose said:
I have a question for you. What will become of the 70% of Ukrainians that resisted and fought against Russia if Russia is allowed to overrun their country?
Click to expand...

First of all, would you mind letting me know where you are getting this 70% statistic from? Secondly, from where I stand, Russia has made it amply clear for a long time now that all they've wanted is to have an equitable solution to the terrible civil war that had been wracking Ukraine for 8 years while Russia tried to work out a diplomatic solution with western powers who now admit they were lying to Russia and never had any intention of coming up with a diplomatic solution. To date, western powers are still not interested in any serious diplomacy. So long as that remains the case, the war will continue, at least as long as western Ukraine has the means of continuing it.

If they do run out of manpower, weapons, or both, one can expect that they will finally return to the negotiating table and make a deal. One not nearly as nice as the one they could have accepted near the start of the war, when Russia literally said they would leave all of the areas they'd taken following their military operation, but one that I think would still be a lot better than continuing to fight this bloody war.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Russia has the #1 military on the Earth...their best buds are China...together they make 8 times the military gear the West does....most of it better than ours in quality.

Buckle Up.
Click to expand...

Funny how the supposed "#1 military on the Earth" has been getting its ass handed to it for the past two years by a tiny country a fraction of its size.
 
Phoenyx said:
I fully respect the right of many Ukrainians to define themselves as such, regardless of how recent an invention the country they associate with is.
Click to expand...
That’s good but I don’t think Putin does. (When I say ‘Putin’ I mean the Russian leadership .)

Take Crimea, for example. No one ever asked the Crimean people back in 1954 if they wanted to be transferred from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SFSR,
Click to expand...
It made no difference back then. It was all the Soviet Union.
The response was almost a unanimous yes
Click to expand...
Sorry but ‘almost unanimous’ is unrealistic in a vote like that. Putin will be re-elected almost unanimously, lol.
would you mind letting me know where you are getting this 70% statistic from?
Click to expand...
Just a guess based on looking at a map of what Ukraine controls. Forget about percentages. Why isn’t there a sizable or even a nominal resistance to the Ukraine government from within Ukraine? I won’t consider the Donbas.
Russia has made it amply clear for a long time now that all they've wanted is to have an equitable solution to the terrible civil war that had been wracking Ukraine for 8 years while Russia tried to work out a diplomatic solution with western powers who now admit they were lying to Russia and never had any intention of coming up with a diplomatic solution.
Click to expand...
Putin only met with Zelenskyy in Paris prior to the invasion and had zero interest in working out an equitable solution. Z was no western power. What western powers are you referring to? No It’s now clear Putin had already made up his mind to invade before that meeting. He treated Z with total contempt at that meeting .
To date, western powers are still not interested in any serious diplomacy.
Click to expand...
Neither is Putin.
If they do run out of manpower, weapons, or both, one can expect that they will finally return to the negotiating table and make a deal.
Click to expand...
Then they have no bargaining chips. Their back is against the wall. As I said Putin has made no secret of his maximalist objective.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top