Conservatives should consider Chuck Hagel

and you don't think that the events on the ground and how the situation has developed might be the cause for Hagel or any other politician to rethink his support for the war? You don't think that the absence of WMD's might make a politician rethink his vote, especially when HE believed that WMD's were the most convincing rationale for invasion in the first place?
 
Dixie said:
In Dixies mind... Speaking up against this War and Bush is speaking out against the troops... hogwash. When you see an injustice it is our elected officials duty to speak up... Hagel is a brave man for taking on the Bushites....

I don't have any problem with anyone speaking out against this war... I have a major beef with politicians who VOTED FOR the war, and now want to pretend they didn't do that, or that Bush misled them into VOTING FOR the war! I have far more respect for people like Dennis Kusinich, who have basically been against this war (or any war) from the start. At least he is honest about his convictions, and doesn't change when the wind blows.

Hagel is a political opportunist, he saw the polls tanking on Iraq, and he bailed from the very 'sinking ship' he helped create. There is no 'honor' in that, it's pure unadulterated political opportunism, whether you recognize it or not.
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One can vote in favor of something and if you see it taking the wrong direction ...you have the right to stop and smell the roses. As I beleive is the case with Hagel. Hagel's main argument is about the hows and why's of this War, and where is it taking us and why the hell are we going to surge at this stage in the game. This War in Iraq that is now in its 5th year! And we still do not have certainty as to the why's how's of how we got here in the first place.... this is troubling Dixie...and I wish every single member of the house and Senate would wake up and ask this most fundemental of questions.... What is the truth behind this debacle .... and I know in my gut if the truth were known....it would defy the very fabric of what it means to be an American.
 
What is the truth behind this debacle .... and I know in my gut if the truth were known....it would defy the very fabric of what it means to be an American.
//

AMEN!
 
I don't have any problem with anyone speaking out against this war... I have a major beef with politicians who VOTED FOR the war, and now want to pretend they didn't do that, or that Bush misled them into VOTING FOR the war!

People can change their minds, based on new facts Dixie. Basically, that's called being a Democrat. Hagel is a great example of one of the few republicans willing to change his mind, based on the facts.
 
mbl... McCain can win, easily if he puts Rudy/Hagel on the ticket. I personally think it will be McCain/Romney.

Hillary is the dems choice. She can win if the Reps put any non-moderate up. Edwards had ZERO chance of winning a general election. Obama would be a good VP candidate. Gore is an idiot. The Dems best two chances to win convincingly are Clark and Lieberman, but they will NEVER get the nod. The dem party has shifted too far to the left for them.

In my opinion it will be Hillary/Obama vs McCain/Romney. McCain wins.... even if the election were held today. If it was Clark/Lieberman vs. anyone the Reps chose... Clark/Lieberman would win hands down.
 
One can vote in favor of something and if you see it taking the wrong direction ...you have the right to stop and smell the roses.

Yeah, it's called 'flip-flopping' and John Kerry made a career of it.

As I beleive is the case with Hagel.

Precisely! He took a play from the Kerry playbook!

Hagel's main argument is about the hows and why's of this War, and where is it taking us and why the hell are we going to surge at this stage in the game.

The time to have raised these questions and make these arguments, was before we engaged the troops there, not now!

This War in Iraq that is now in its 5th year! And we still do not have certainty as to the why's how's of how we got here in the first place....

Oh, we KNOW why and how! Why? ---Because every intelligence source on the planet was SURE he had WMD's! How? ---The United States Congress Authorized the Use of Military Force in Iraq, including the vote from Chuck Hagel. There you have it, the "How and Why" of this war!

this is troubling Dixie...and I wish every single member of the house and Senate would wake up and ask this most fundemental of questions....

And what makes you think, because they don't happen to share your defeatist viewpoints on Iraq, they are "asleep" and not asking fundamental questions? Is it because you are a stubborn ass who doesn't think he is ever wrong? Is it because you are too hard headed to listen to any other views? What is the cause of you thinking this?


What is the truth behind this debacle .... and I know in my gut if the truth were known....it would defy the very fabric of what it means to be an American.

Well, now here, you just start sounding like Desh. The "truth" has been known, there is no cover-up or lie being hidden from you. Let me ask you this... with the entire focus on Saddam's stockpile of WMD's, and given the capability of the CIA, why wouldn't they have just 'planted' the evidence in Iraq, if they were intent on lying and misleading? Seems to me, it would have been very easy for the CIA to covertly smuggle in some WMD's, and claim they found Saddam's stash! Why didn't they, if they were hell bent on telling us a lie? It would have put an end to all speculation, it would have clinched the deal, it would have instantly justified the entire war, and it could have been perpetrated and orchestrated by our CIA without anyone being the wiser. Don't believe it? They've written books on the covert actions of the CIA over the years! Don't fucking tell me they couldn't have done it! If the main objective was misleading and lying to us about Iraq, this would have surely happened, and it hasn't... that tells me, there is no lying or misleading, they are telling us, straight up, what the deal is, and always have been.
 
Yeah, just what we need another president with "old timers".
Of course Regan just got it after he left the presidency :rolleyes:
 
Pre Election 2000 ... George W Bush declares .. If elected, I will not allow U.S. military forces to engage in "nation building."

Post 9/11 George W Bush declares a War On Terror ...

He then goes on a mission to convince the American Public that Iraq is stock piling WMD's and have become a clear and present danger to the USA ...., for this reason we need to intervene and invade.

One year and half later, America ..convinced that Saddam's regime is a clear and present danger to our Nations Security, proceeds to invade Iraq ...

Months upon months later... with Saddams regime removed, we never go on to discover any real evidence of WMD's ... but this doesnt matter...because our mission has somehow changed to that of liberators and protectors of terrorist insurgency. We ar now involved in the monitoring and shaping of a brand new Government .... a nation if you will. We have built a Nation and we must now protect it from its neighbors who are engaged the stock piling of WMD's ...and represent a clear and present danger not only to Iraq..a new government built by the Anti-nation Builder... but to the Homeland as Well....
 
klaatu said:
Pre Election 2000 ... George W Bush declares .. If elected, I will not allow U.S. military forces to engage in "nation building."

Post 9/11 George W Bush declares a War On Terror ...

He then goes on a mission to convince the American Public that Iraq is stock piling WMD's and have become a clear and present danger to the USA ...., for this reason we need to intervene and invade.

One year and half later, America ..convinced that Saddam's regime is a clear and present danger to our Nations Security, proceeds to invade Iraq ...

Months upon months later... with Saddams regime removed, we never go on to discover any real evidence of WMD's ... but this doesnt matter...because our mission has somehow changed to that of liberators and protectors of terrorist insurgency. We ar now involved in the monitoring and shaping of a brand new Government .... a nation if you will. We have built a Nation and we must now protect it from its neighbors who are engaged the stock piling of WMD's ...and represent a clear and present danger not only to Iraq..a new government built by the Anti-nation Builder... but to the Homeland as Well....
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*** Yup ***
 
See Dixie calls my points defeatist because I dont want to see our troops in a middle of a Desert fighting a cluster fuck of a War that was a monumental mistake to begin with. Defeatist Dixie? Losing what? What would we lose if we withdraw and tell Iraq the ball is now in your court. We can go on giving them financial and warhead support... because that much we do owe them, after all we did blow their Country to smithereens ...

Ok... if your point is accurate and we did go in for the purpose of protecting ourselves from Saddam ... what is the reason for being there 5 years later... figting a War of Insurgency, being liberators and protecting the Nation that we built? Especially now knowing that it was a major fuck up from the beginning!
How long do we go on? Your answer will be to WIN ... Win what?

The game is over and it is now time to call a spade a spade ... nah..to plant evidence as you suggest to give apparence of WMD's would have been all to transparent.... it is better to decieve by the least obvious measures.
 
Ohh no! this war cannot be allowed to be called a deception or failure/mistake until after the 2008 elections.
 
klaatu said:
See Dixie calls my points defeatist because I dont want to see our troops in a middle of a Desert fighting a cluster fuck of a War that was a monumental mistake to begin with. Defeatist Dixie? Losing what? What would we lose if we withdraw and tell Iraq the ball is now in your court. We can go on giving them financial and warhead support... because that much we do owe them, after all we did blow their Country to smithereens ...

Ok... if your point is accurate and we did go in for the purpose of protecting ourselves from Saddam ... what is the reason for being there 5 years later... figting a War of Insurgency, being liberators and protecting the Nation that we built? Especially now knowing that it was a major fuck up from the beginning!
How long do we go on? Your answer will be to WIN ... Win what?

The game is over and it is now time to call a spade a spade ... nah..to plant evidence as you suggest to give apparence of WMD's would have been all to transparent.... it is better to decieve by the least obvious measures.
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:clap:


My hat's off to you sir. I could only wish to articulate it that well.
 
"Then too there is the tiny issue of 3 trillion more of debt in 6 years....."

And what about the $1.2 trillion in additional debt left to us by Clinton? DESPITE having the best economic boom in our history during his two terms to boost revenues!
 
Superfreak said:
"Then too there is the tiny issue of 3 trillion more of debt in 6 years....."

And what about the $1.2 trillion in additional debt left to us by Clinton? DESPITE having the best economic boom in our history during his two terms to boost revenues!
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8 yrs of cliowntoon = 1.2 trillion
6 years of Bush = 3 trillion

hmmm
 
"8 yrs of cliowntoon = 1.2 trillion
6 years of Bush = 3 trillion

hmmm"

8 years of a huge economic boom in the country that had little to do with any politicians, yet Clinton and the Rep Congress STILL managed to increase our debt over that 8 years, DESPITE huge revenue boosts.

Not trying to defend Bush, because I think he and the Rep Congress have sucked when it comes to the budget. But he did have several things to contend with that were well beyond his control.... the tech/telecom/internet bubble bursting, 9/11, Katrina all were beyond his control with respect to the hit on the economy. That said, his timing in Iraq and unbelievably poor execution and exit strategies there have led us to insane debt levels.

Again, not trying to defend Bush, just trying to point out that Clinton sucked too. Fair and balanced. ;)
 
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