Constitutional Tender Act

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2009/08/27/58075/tenther-highway/

In a recent radio interview, Rep. Carol Shea-Porter (D-NH) made the seemingly-innocuous statement that the federal highway system, as well as federal laws ensuring safe drugs and safe airplanes, are constitutional. Nevertheless, Shea-Porter is now under attack by “tenther” activists who believe that virtually everything the federal government does is unconstitutional:

“All of those issues belong to the states and the people. Healthcare is not a federal issue. It is a state and people issue — the same with transportation. The Constitution does say that the federal government can take care of what are called the post roads — those on which the mail travels — but outside of that, states are responsible for their own highways, their own roads, their own county, local, state roads,” he notes. “And her comment about, ‘Well, the Constitution doesn’t cover drug use and drug abuse’ — yes it does, and that is under the criminal justice issues that belong to the states.”
 
Return of Dune said:
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2009/08/27/58075/tenther-highway/

In a recent radio interview, Rep. Carol Shea-Porter (D-NH) made the seemingly-innocuous statement that the federal highway system, as well as federal laws ensuring safe drugs and safe airplanes, are constitutional. Nevertheless, Shea-Porter is now under attack by “tenther” activists who believe that virtually everything the federal government does is unconstitutional:

“All of those issues belong to the states and the people. Healthcare is not a federal issue. It is a state and people issue — the same with transportation. The Constitution does say that the federal government can take care of what are called the post roads — those on which the mail travels — but outside of that, states are responsible for their own highways, their own roads, their own county, local, state roads,” he notes. “And her comment about, ‘Well, the Constitution doesn’t cover drug use and drug abuse’ — yes it does, and that is under the criminal justice issues that belong to the states.”
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In the language of the ratifiers, a post road was not one used exclusively for mail. It was a major road, along which at intervals there where rest stops, or posts. The federal interstate highway system is exactly this sort of thing, so in this regard congress is exercising one of its enumerated powers. States reserve responsibility for state and local roads.

On the other hand, powers relating to the health their citizens were retained entirely by the states. There is no power delegated to the federation having anything to do with healthcare, thus the federal government is precluded from exercising such powers.
 
Centinel said:
In the language of the ratifiers, a post road was not one used exclusively for mail. It was a major road, along which at intervals there where rest stops, or posts. The federal interstate highway system is exactly this sort of thing, so in this regard congress is exercising one of its enumerated powers. States reserve responsibility for state and local roads.

On the other hand, powers relating to the health their citizens were retained entirely by the states. There is no power delegated to the federation having anything to do with healthcare, thus the federal government is precluded from exercising such powers.
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Sorry, you can have your own insanity but not your own definitions.

No excuses, no exceptions.

A post road is a road designated for the transportation of postal mail. In past centuries only major towns had a post house, and the roads used by post riders or mail coaches to carry mail among them were particularly important ones or, due to the special attention given them, became so. In various centuries and countries, post road became more or less equivalent to main road, royal road, or highway. The 20th century spread of postal service blurred the distinction.


Boston Post Road

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Routes of the Boston Post Road


The Boston Post Road was a system of mail-delivery routes between New York City and Boston, Massachusetts that evolved into the first major highways in the United States.
The three major alignments were the Lower Post Road (now U.S. Route 1 along the shore via Providence, Rhode Island), the Upper Post Road (now US 5 and US 20 from New Haven, Connecticut by way of Springfield, Massachusetts), and the Middle Post Road (which diverged from the Upper Road in Hartford, Connecticut and ran northeastward to Boston via Pomfret, Connecticut).
In some towns, the area near the Boston Post Road has been placed on the National Register of Historic Places, since it was often the first road in the area, and some buildings of historical significance were built along it. The Boston Post Road Historic District, including part of the road in Rye, New York, has been designated a National Historic Landmark. The Post Road is also famous for milestones that date from the 18th century, many of which survive to this day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Post_Road
 
Return of Dune said:
Sorry, you can have your own insanity but not your own definitions.
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You might want to dig a little deeper. From the US Department of Transportation:

In April 1928, Thomas H. MacDonald, Chief of the Bureau of Public Roads, and his assistant, Herbert S. Fairbank, prepared a 56-page paper on "Federal Aid as a Road Building Policy." From a historic perspective, the paper noted that the modern understanding of "post roads" was "one of those curious inversions of the meaning of words" that occurs over time because of changing habits and customs:

The original "post roads" were the highways over which journeys were made of such length as to necessitate accommodations for the changing of horses and the over-night lodging of travelers. To provide those accommodations post houses or inns were established at convenient intervals and the roads took their name from these posts . . . . By reason of the fact that the carriage of parcels and packets necessarily took place over the post roads, the public agency which performed that service became the postal service, and the stations already established for other purposes naturally became the post offices.
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This was, the paper asserts, the understanding of the term "in the minds of the framers of the Constitution."
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And, you also might want to address the fact that the states never delegated any power to the federal government to involve itself with health care. Let's not let that fall by the wayside.
 
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Centinel said:
You might want to dig a little deeper. From the US Department of Transportation:



And, you also might want to address the fact that the states never delegated any power to the federal government to involve itself with health care. Let's not let that fall by the wayside.
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Sorry, but a paper from 1928 is in no way proof of what was in the minds of the framers, 150 years earlier.


The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


wel·fare noun \ˈwel-ˌfere


Definition of WELFARE

1
: the state of doing well especially in respect to good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity <must look out for your own welfare>

2
a : aid in the form of money or necessities for those in need b : an agency or program through which such aid is distributed


See welfare defined for English-language learners »

See welfare defined for kids »

Examples of WELFARE

  • He wants to do away with welfare.
  • I have your welfare at heart.
  • The welfare of all the orphans was at stake.
  • She donates to organizations concerned about animal welfare.
Origin of WELFARE

Middle English, from the phrase wel faren to fare well First Known Use: 14th century


Related to WELFARE

Synonyms: good, interest, weal, well-being
Antonyms: ill-being
 
Return of Dune said:
This would have been a clue; "why do you hold the Fed in such high esteem?"

I oppose the Fed for completely different reasons, those you mention are but minor symptoms.



I
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That video pretty much consumed my day. :D

Considering wars are used to increase the profits of the Fed investors it makes sense to have a One World Order in which war would not happen so why would they be be pro One World Order?
 
apple0154 said:
That video pretty much consumed my day. :D

Considering wars are used to increase the profits of the Fed investors it makes sense to have a One World Order in which war would not happen so why would they be be pro One World Order?
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Slavery is even easier for them to profit from than war.
 
Return of Dune said:
Sorry, but a paper from 1928 is in no way proof of what was in the minds of the framers, 150 years earlier.


The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


wel·fare noun \ˈwel-ˌfere


Definition of WELFARE

1
: the state of doing well especially in respect to good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity <must look out for your own welfare>

2
a : aid in the form of money or necessities for those in need b : an agency or program through which such aid is distributed


See welfare defined for English-language learners »

See welfare defined for kids »

Examples of WELFARE

  • He wants to do away with welfare.
  • I have your welfare at heart.
  • The welfare of all the orphans was at stake.
  • She donates to organizations concerned about animal welfare.
Origin of WELFARE

Middle English, from the phrase wel faren to fare well First Known Use: 14th century


Related to WELFARE

Synonyms: good, interest, weal, well-being
Antonyms: ill-being
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Okay, so getting back to Representative Shea-Porters comments, we've discussed Congress' power to establish post roads, which you consider to be main roads along which mail is carried and I consider to be main roads along which exist rest posts. Small difference in detail, but let's for the moment agree that congress was delegated the power to establish major roads. So we agree on that score at least.

As far as congress having power to involve itself in health care, I take it from your citation of the taxing clause and your focus on the definition of the word welfare that the taxing clause somehow represents a delegation to congress of the power to...and I'm guessing here...spend on whatever congress believes to be in the general welfare of the united state.

I hesitate to erect a straw man or to put words in your mouth, so just let me know if I am correctly representing your argument, and then we can proceed.
 
Centinel, have you met SmarterThanFew?

You're one of the few he's smarter than.
 
Centinel said:
Okay, so getting back to Representative Shea-Porters comments, we've discussed Congress' power to establish post roads, which you consider to be main roads along which mail is carried and I consider to be main roads along which exist rest posts. Small difference in detail, but let's for the moment agree that congress was delegated the power to establish major roads. So we agree on that score at least.

As far as congress having power to involve itself in health care, I take it from your citation of the taxing clause and your focus on the definition of the word welfare that the taxing clause somehow represents a delegation to congress of the power to...and I'm guessing here...spend on whatever congress believes to be in the general welfare of the united state.

I hesitate to erect a straw man or to put words in your mouth, so just let me know if I am correctly representing your argument, and then we can proceed.
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All of a sudden you are worried about a strawman? Erect away Rene.
 
Return of Dune said:
All of a sudden you are worried about a strawman? Erect away Rene.
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So you are arguing that the spending clause represents a delegation by the states to congress the power to spend on whatever congress believes to be in the general welfare. And your contention is that federal involvement in health care is constitutional on these grounds?

I find this interpretation difficult to accept. If the first clause in article I, section 8 does indeed, as I believe you are saying, grant a power for congress to spend on whatever it thinks is for the welfare of the US, then why would there be a need for further clauses in this section. For instance, why would there be a need for a clause authorizing congress to support armies or maintain a navy. Would not these powers be implied in the power to spend on the general welfare. Along the same lines, why would the states have specifically delegated a power to establish post offices and post roads, since the power to do so would be implied in the power to provide for the general welfare.

I think that a more accurate interpretation is that the general welfare clause represents a substantive limitation on the taxing power. This construction would be consistent with the organization of several other items in art I, section 8, in that they begin with a grant of power and then follow with a limitation on the grant. So when you look at the taxing clause, we see that it first grants the power to tax, but then limits that power by stipulating that the funds only be used for the general welfare, not to enrich certain regions or parties.
 
Centinel said:
So you are arguing that the spending clause represents a delegation by the states to congress the power to spend on whatever congress believes to be in the general welfare. And your contention is that federal involvement in health care is constitutional on these grounds?

I find this interpretation difficult to accept. If the first clause in article I, section 8 does indeed, as I believe you are saying, grant a power for congress to spend on whatever it thinks is for the welfare of the US, then why would there be a need for further clauses in this section. For instance, why would there be a need for a clause authorizing congress to support armies or maintain a navy. Would not these powers be implied in the power to spend on the general welfare. Along the same lines, why would the states have specifically delegated a power to establish post offices and post roads, since the power to do so would be implied in the power to provide for the general welfare.

I think that a more accurate interpretation is that the general welfare clause represents a substantive limitation on the taxing power. This construction would be consistent with the organization of several other items in art I, section 8, in that they begin with a grant of power and then follow with a limitation on the grant. So when you look at the taxing clause, we see that it first grants the power to tax, but then limits that power by stipulating that the funds only be used for the general welfare, not to enrich certain regions or parties.
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What about the Air Force?
No where in the document is an air force authorized.

Quash the federal government!
 
Return of Dune said:
What about the Air Force?
No where in the document is an air force authorized.

Quash the federal government!
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The states delegated to congress the power to raise an army. Armies have planes now, and flamethrowers. Those are just technological changes.

Congress still has very little power over most internal matters of the member republics. Again, only the powers specifically granted.
 
Centinel said:
The states delegated to congress the power to raise an army. Armies have planes now, and flamethrowers. Those are just technological changes.

Congress still has very little power over most internal matters of the member republics. Again, only the powers specifically granted.
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Thanks, you lose.
 
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