Ethanol requirement

leaningright

conservative democrat
Staff member
I don't understand everything about this but I am sad to say that my local gas station will no longer be selling gasoline. From what i understand the government is forcing oil companies to add ethanol to the gasoline. Maybe that or tax them heavily if they don't. Anyway, starting next month I won't be able to buy 100% gasoline anywhere according to my local guy. This is such an intrusion by government that I don't know where to start. We're propping some corn growers up because they decided to jump whole hog into this debacle of ethanol production years ago. I'd rather them take the tax money subsidizing this effort and put it to use paying the farmers to grow crops to feed the hungry and leave my gasoline alone.
 
You barely scratched the surface.
Food for fuel is evil incarnate.
Here in Mass 10% mandated ethonol has ruined many boat engines and gasoline can actually go bad in as little as two weeks in the summer.
I am surprised this is just coming to you, I thought it was a federal mandate.
 
You barely scratched the surface.
Food for fuel is evil incarnate.
Here in Mass 10% mandated ethonol has ruined many boat engines and gasoline can actually go bad in as little as two weeks in the summer.
I am surprised this is just coming to you, I thought it was a federal mandate.

Corn grown for ethanol is not the same corn that is used for human consumption. :palm:

Misunderstanding corn for human consumption
- Many don't realize that corn for ethanol and corn for human consumption are two different types. Field corn, the type used to feed livestock, goes into ethanol production. Sweet corn, a very small portion of the U.S. crop, is the type eaten by humans.
 
I don't understand everything about this but I am sad to say that my local gas station will no longer be selling gasoline. From what i understand the government is forcing oil companies to add ethanol to the gasoline. Maybe that or tax them heavily if they don't. Anyway, starting next month I won't be able to buy 100% gasoline anywhere according to my local guy. This is such an intrusion by government that I don't know where to start. We're propping some corn growers up because they decided to jump whole hog into this debacle of ethanol production years ago. I'd rather them take the tax money subsidizing this effort and put it to use paying the farmers to grow crops to feed the hungry and leave my gasoline alone.

Politics tries to cloud and favor/disfavor everything.

Oil today is traded primarily by the US dollar. The instant oil rich Countries tried to start trading oil for gold instead of US currency, we stared seeing war. Both parties went to war and neither party had a good explaination of why. The educated political thinker knows that Iraq wasn't because of a little birdie who stated Iraq had WMD's but it was because Iraq threatened to trade oil for gold primarily and push the USD aside.

Other Countries unionized and we either attacked them based on lies or staged coupdeta's to paint an ok picture to attack them.

 
Field corn is also used for cornmeal....think taco shells, Doritos, corn bread. Which may not be a big deal to most of us here in the US, but the grain is important overall.

Older small engines(lawnmowers, boat motors, etc..) are affected by ethanol. The plastics and rubber they used back then deteriorate quickly with ethanol infused gasoline. Newer engines have parts with plastic and rubber designed for the presence of ethanol.
 
Field corn is also used for cornmeal....think taco shells, Doritos, corn bread. Which may not be a big deal to most of us here in the US, but the grain is important overall.

Older small engines(lawnmowers, boat motors, etc..) are affected by ethanol. The plastics and rubber they used back then deteriorate quickly with ethanol infused gasoline. Newer engines have parts with plastic and rubber designed for the presence of ethanol.

"Older small engines(lawnmowers, boat motors, etc..) are affected by ethanol. The plastics and rubber they used back then deteriorate quickly with ethanol infused gasoline. Newer engines have parts with plastic and rubber designed for the presence of ethanol"

"Older small minds are affected by facts. The facts seem to work their way into the engine or assembly one way or another. Newer minds have common sense and embrace progress."
 
Field corn is also used for cornmeal....think taco shells, Doritos, corn bread. Which may not be a big deal to most of us here in the US, but the grain is important overall.

Older small engines(lawnmowers, boat motors, etc..) are affected by ethanol. The plastics and rubber they used back then deteriorate quickly with ethanol infused gasoline. Newer engines have parts with plastic and rubber designed for the presence of ethanol.

http://www.cie.us/documents/HowMuchEthanol.pdf

The amount of field corn used for human food processing (starch, sweeteners, and cereal) normally amounts to just 5 percent of total corn usage. Corn demand for food processing markets has been flat for the last 15 years.
 
"Older small engines(lawnmowers, boat motors, etc..) are affected by ethanol. The plastics and rubber they used back then deteriorate quickly with ethanol infused gasoline. Newer engines have parts with plastic and rubber designed for the presence of ethanol"

"Older small minds are affected by facts. The facts seem to work their way into the engine or assembly one way or another. Newer minds have common sense and embrace progress."

How about saying what you mean? I am not pro or anti ethanol. I was just stating facts. Go to a small engine repair shop and ask for yourself.
 
Ethanol takes more energy to produce than it returns. and that doesn't even include the etra energy required to produce the fertilizers required to grow the corn in the depleted soil


Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. "Put another way," Pimentel said, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu."

http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_17166.cfm
 
Ethanol takes more energy to produce than it returns. and that doesn't even include the etra energy required to produce the fertilizers required to grow the corn in the depleted soil


Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. "Put another way," Pimentel said, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu."

http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_17166.cfm

There are ways around that though. I mean, not the actual physics, but the production itself. I thought about this when hydrogen was all the rage. We have a huge chunk of our country that is desert land. Construct one of those huge solar arrays like they have in the Middle East(Abu Dhabi?). Those things can power a whole city. It should be able to provide enough power to process corn/hydrogen or whatever.
 
If cattle eat the field corn and we eat the cattle, it's still part of the equation.

The bottom line is that corn used for ethanol is corn NOT used to feed livestock, and the increased demand drives up the price.

Meanwhile, making ethanol made from corn is a grossly inefficient process that consumes nearly as much energy as it produces.

It benefits farmers who grow corn, and almost no one else.
 
There are ways around that though. I mean, not the actual physics, but the production itself. I thought about this when hydrogen was all the rage. We have a huge chunk of our country that is desert land. Construct one of those huge solar arrays like they have in the Middle East(Abu Dhabi?). Those things can power a whole city. It should be able to provide enough power to process corn/hydrogen or whatever.

Why use any energy at a wasteful 70% loss? If you could create useful energy with solar arrays, why would you use that energy wastefully? You'd be better off to use the energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen than to waste it making ethanol.
 
Why use any energy at a wasteful 70% loss? If you could create useful energy with solar arrays, why would you use that energy wastefully? You'd be better off to use the energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen than to waste it making ethanol.

Because, unless you are willing to embrace electric vehicles...hydrogen and ethanol make the most sense. Ethanol will be a.necessary product until the conversion to alternative fuels are accepted by society at large. Heck GM cars are.capable of E85 fuels(85% ethanol), but the standard is 10% right now. As.those cars.become older and more attractive in the used car market, perhaps.we'll see a gradual increase in the amount of ethanol at the.pump

Hydrogen? I'm all for it, but most aren't.
 
You barely scratched the surface.
Food for fuel is evil incarnate.
Here in Mass 10% mandated ethonol has ruined many boat engines and gasoline can actually go bad in as little as two weeks in the summer.
I am surprised this is just coming to you, I thought it was a federal mandate.

To those saying that the corn used for ethanol is not used or is different from corn grown for human consumption, that misses the point entirely. They could grow something else that is for human consumption on the land they're growing this corn on.

Now to what Rune says up here...and is exactly right on. I have two boats, one has a 1994 115 HP motor on it and the other has a 1987 150 HP engine on it. I am concerned for these and for my mowers and tractor, not to mention my bike. Ethanol laced fuel does go bad quickly and cannot be stored well. It gets fewer miles to the gallon and less horse power no matter what you use it in. Feed the hungry and make real gasoline.
 
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Because, unless you are willing to embrace electric vehicles...hydrogen and ethanol make the most sense. Ethanol will be a.necessary product until the conversion to alternative fuels are accepted by society at large. Heck GM cars are.capable of E85 fuels(85% ethanol), but the standard is 10% right now. As.those cars.become older and more attractive in the used car market, perhaps.we'll see a gradual increase in the amount of ethanol at the.pump

Hydrogen? I'm all for it, but most aren't.

I am for whatever works and is most efficient at getting us off the Mid-Eastern oil tit... Natural gas for one, hydrogen, even ethanol if they could make it more efficient. If I lived in a city I'd probably even drive an electric car. But they need to keep real gasoline available in the transition instead of trying to force whole sale change on us.
 
Adding ethanol to our gas is a bandaid fix for a bigger problem. It allows someone to feel better, since it looks like someone is addressing the problem. But the oil used to grow the corn is greater than the savings in oil used for gasoline.
 
I don't understand everything about this but I am sad to say that my local gas station will no longer be selling gasoline. From what i understand the government is forcing oil companies to add ethanol to the gasoline. Maybe that or tax them heavily if they don't. Anyway, starting next month I won't be able to buy 100% gasoline anywhere according to my local guy. This is such an intrusion by government that I don't know where to start. We're propping some corn growers up because they decided to jump whole hog into this debacle of ethanol production years ago. I'd rather them take the tax money subsidizing this effort and put it to use paying the farmers to grow crops to feed the hungry and leave my gasoline alone.
Well that's a nice conspiracy theory LR and you're right. You don't understand the issue as well as you need too. (No offense meant)

First what's so great about burning pure gasoline? Guess what? You probably haven't. Gasoline has always had additives for specific performance purposes since the dawn of internal combustion engines.

I mean your argument is one that I heard when tetraethyl lead (i.e. no knock leaded gasoline) was banned as an additive to gasoline. That it was a gross intrusion of peoples rights. Never mind the fact that the lead contamination from tetraethyl lead use was world wide in scope and that the ecological impact of lead as a bioaccumulative toxin that has well known teratogenic and developmental affects, particularly on the young.

It's a similar case here. Adding ethanol is not about subsidizing farmers until you reach a concentration of ethanol that exceeds the quantity needed to oxygenate fuel for more complete combustion. Around 10% of so.

I don't think you properly understand why ethanol is required to be blended in gasoline. It is not to subsidize corn farmers. That's political BS.

Gasoline is complex mixture of long chain hydrocarbons. As a fuel it has these advantages. It has a low flash point, it has a high BTU value, the raw materials to produce it are abundant and it's relatively easy to produce in large volumes. One of the problems with gasoline though is the fact that it is composed of long chain hydrocarbons. The problem with long chain hydrocarbons is that they are extremely difficult to combust completely as modern internal combustion engines operate at far to low of a temperature to provide for complete combustion. End result is a substantial amount of that gasoline is emitted from your tail pipe as air pollution. Incompletely combusted gasoline has high volumes of Polycyclic aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAH's, e.g. naphthalene), Volatile Organic Compounds VOC's (e.g. benzene, toluene, xylenes), Particulates (which contain heavy metals such as lead, arsenic and mercury) and such inorganic byproducts of incomplete combustion as Nitrous Oxides and Sulfur Dioxides (NOX's and SOX's). The inorganic by products of incomplete combustion of gasoline (particulates, NOX and SOX) are the ones notorious in urban areas for creating the phenomena known as "smog".

Now you may feel that requiring ethanol addition to gasoline is an intolerable invasion of your rights but far more people view your driving a vehicle that combusts non-oxygenated gasoline as a serious violation of our private and public property rights by contaminating them with the hazardous and toxic air pollutants. Not only that, it's well documented that using such fuels are a serious and well documented health threat due to the large volumes of hazardous air pollutants (PAH's, VOC's, Particulates, NOX, SOX, etc.) they emit.

Ergo, quite a while back, it was required, via the Clean Air Act, that oxygenating additives be added to assure a more complete combustion of gasoline (I believe 99.99% is the Clean Air Act Standard). At first MTBE (Methyl tert-Butyl Ether) was added as an oxygenator to fuels. The so called "100% gasoline" you've been used to using probably contains MTBE as an oxygenator. MTBE works quite well as an oxygenator.

So what's the problem then and why Ethanol? Well you essentially have the same problem with MTBE as an additive to gasoline that you had with tetraethyl lead. MTBE is a toxic chemical and testing has shown that in many regions of the nation surface waters and public drinking waters have been contaminated with unsafe levels of MTBE. Big problem. That's where Ethanol comes in. Ethanol may not be as good an oxygenator as MTBE but it is still an excellent oxygenator as ethanol (CH3CH2OH) is 35% oxygen by mass. Adding up to 10% ethanol provides enough oxygen to assure a more complete combustion of gasoline occurs and that substantially less hazardous air pollutants are emitted.

Now does this benefit corn farmers? Hell yes it does. What's wrong with that given the advantages gained? I like to see our farmers secure and prosperous cause that ultimately means I eat well and I'm all in favor of eating well. Nearly 40% of corn production goes into ethanol production which is mostly used as a fuel additive. So what do we gain from that on the positive side?

#1. Is assures cleaner burning gasoline and far less hazardous air pollutants, with their well documented damaging health affects, being emitted.

#2. It provides a huge market for farmers surplus corn creating a large market for their products which helps to assure farmers financial security which is strategically vital to all of us as it means we eat well and farmers thrive.

#3. It doesn't take a genius in mathematics or international policy to figure out the strategic importance of cutting gasoline consumption by 10%. Crude oil typically produces about a 40% fraction of gasoline. By adding 10% ethanol to gasoline and thus reducing gasoline by 10% we can reduce the quantity of crude oil we need to import for gasoline by 25%!! That's of huge strategic value given the volatility of the oil producing export regions.

So you're talking a huge win/win situation here vs. this phony perception that this is a gross invasion of your rights by government.

Now I'm sure others will have noted that corn as a primary fuel doesn't make sense as it takes more fuel to grow corn than is derived from ethanol production from corn. That's very true but that's not what were talking about here. We're talking about using ethanol not as a primary fuel but as a hugely valuable additive that makes gasoline far, far more safer to use and it provides other seriously important advantages.

In other words, this is a very good idea with damned few drawbacks.
 
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Well Mott, as usual we'll just have to disagree for the most part. The problem with it is the loss of power, lower mileage and degradation of fuel lines. Put ethanol in fuel...sell it...just let them sell real gasoline as well...and don't tax it to the point of being ridiculous.
 
Well Mott, as usual we'll just have to disagree for the most part. The problem with it is the loss of power, lower mileage and degradation of fuel lines. Put ethanol in fuel...sell it...just let them sell real gasoline as well...and don't tax it to the point of being ridiculous.
The tax issue is a completely different issue but what you're failing to realize is that you have never used "real" gasoline. Gasoline has always had additives in it.

What you're claiming as an invasion of your rights by government is silly. The disadvantages you list, perceived and real, pale compared to the very real advantages I just described.

#1. If your suffering from fuel line degradation your driving a very old vehicle. That's not a problem in modern vehicles.
#2. If your suffering from loss of fuel mileage and power, again, that's indicative that you're driving a very late model vehicle. Those are not problems win modern vehicles. Modern vehicles, pickup trucks included, have been designed to operate on oxygenated fuels and perform just as well. If you own a Pre 1990's vehicle....meh that may be a problem for you.
#3. Even if those were issues with modern vehicles, which they are not, public safety comes first. The dangers of the hazardous air pollutants emitted from vehicles burning non-oxygenated gasoline are well documented. You don't have the right to endanger my health, my families health or the publics health with the well documented toxic air pollutants emitted from non-oxygenated gasoline. Nor do you have the right to contaminate our private and public property with these toxic air pollutants and endanger our quality of life. You simply don't have that right.
 
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