Evolution vs Creationism---Is there a God? Or is it all just random chance?

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Iron-Merc

Freedom Fighter
I'm definitely a creationist at heart. I believe that God is real, Jesus is the son of God. Humans are chained to a lie because that is the desire of our enemy. Satan has made his kingdom here on earth and has great influence over the human race. As evidenced in the garden of Eden, he caused the fall of humanity, the turn away from God and this is how "death" entered into our vocabulary.​



In reference to evolution, its still just a theory. For one there are no transition forms in the fossil record. For another 99% of all mutations are bad. Evolution is a mathematical impossibility when you sit down and look at the odds.​


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For example, if evolution were true, what is the deal with all the fraudulent fossils? Surely there would be no need to "fake" the missing links between species, yet this seems to be a re-occurring theme that evolutionists cannot escape from.​
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Please share you views on this, I am eager to gain in insight and knowledge and that is exactly what this thread is about. I don't want this to turn into a political pissing match. Let's not mock or demean, simply list your argument and your evidence and debate your points as you see fit.

Good luck and God speed!​
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Iron-Merc said:
I'm definitely a creationist at heart. I believe that God is real, Jesus is the son of God. Humans are chained to a lie because that is the desire of our enemy. Satan has made his kingdom here on earth and has great influence over the human race. As evidenced in the garden of Eden, he caused the fall of humanity, the turn away from God and this is how "death" entered into our vocabulary.​



In reference to evolution, its still just a theory. For one there are no transition forms in the fossil record. For another 99% of all mutations are bad. Evolution is a mathematical impossibility when you sit down and look at the odds.​


​
For example, if evolution were true, what is the deal with all the fraudulent fossils? Surely there would be no need to "fake" the missing links between species, yet this seems to be a re-occurring theme that evolutionists cannot escape from.​
​

​
Please share you views on this, I am eager to gain in insight and knowledge and that is exactly what this thread is about. I don't want this to turn into a political pissing match. Let's not mock or demean, simply list your argument and your evidence and debate your points as you see fit.

Good luck and God speed!​
​
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So this is a philosophical discussion and not a scientific one? The reason I ask that is your use of the term theory in the colloquial sense and not the scientific one as there is no such thing as “just a theory” in science.

If the discussion is a philosophical one, and I have no problem with that, then I would ask why create a false dichotomy? One can believe in both and not be contradictory to each other.

Now if you’re trying to conflate creationism with science well there’s not much room for discussion there. You’re just simply wrong. Creationism by definition is not nor can it be considered science.

Now philosophically that doesn’t necessarily mean creationism is wrong. It just isn’t science.
 
The premise of your thread is bogus, full of misinformation, and you attempt to present a false choice.

I have personally run across literally thousands of people who accept the scientific tenets of evolution while maintaining their Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist, or Hindu faith
 
Iron-Merc said:
I'm definitely a creationist at heart. I believe that God is real, Jesus is the son of God. Humans are chained to a lie because that is the desire of our enemy. Satan has made his kingdom here on earth and has great influence over the human race. As evidenced in the garden of Eden, he caused the fall of humanity, the turn away from God and this is how "death" entered into our vocabulary.
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If I believed that there was such a being, which I do not, I would agree with you that you are correct. His tool is squatting in our White House at this present time. That you all worship a lying, cheating, bullying, cruel, and stupid man and believe that a god lifted him up to the highest office in the land shows how very clever Lucifer is. He has cloaked your eyes with dollar signs and false pride.
 
Iron-Merc said:
I'm definitely a creationist at heart. I believe that God is real, Jesus is the son of God. Humans are chained to a lie because that is the desire of our enemy. Satan has made his kingdom here on earth and has great influence over the human race. As evidenced in the garden of Eden, he caused the fall of humanity, the turn away from God and this is how "death" entered into our vocabulary.​



In reference to evolution, its still just a theory. For one there are no transition forms in the fossil record. For another 99% of all mutations are bad. Evolution is a mathematical impossibility when you sit down and look at the odds.​


​
For example, if evolution were true, what is the deal with all the fraudulent fossils? Surely there would be no need to "fake" the missing links between species, yet this seems to be a re-occurring theme that evolutionists cannot escape from.​
​

​
Please share you views on this, I am eager to gain in insight and knowledge and that is exactly what this thread is about. I don't want this to turn into a political pissing match. Let's not mock or demean, simply list your argument and your evidence and debate your points as you see fit.

Good luck and God speed!​
​
Click to expand...

I believe that God created the beginnings of life on this planet and watched his creations evolve. When man came on the scene he created Satan to tempt man. And here we are today.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
?

So this god puts tempting things in front of us, and if we partake, we fail and are punished?

If a human parent did that, we'd call it child abuse.
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That is exactly the reply I would expect from someone who is in denial that there is a higher authority than man. Many things test us on our desire for something, why not the creator? All I can say is if I'm right you lose everything and I gain everything but if I'm wrong I lose nothing.
 
Iron-Merc said:
I'm definitely a creationist at heart. I believe that God is real, Jesus is the son of God. Humans are chained to a lie because that is the desire of our enemy. Satan has made his kingdom here on earth and has great influence over the human race. As evidenced in the garden of Eden, he caused the fall of humanity, the turn away from God and this is how "death" entered into our vocabulary.​


In reference to evolution, its still just a theory. For one there are no transition forms in the fossil record. For another 99% of all mutations are bad. Evolution is a mathematical impossibility when you sit down and look at the odds.​
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These are common opinions by creationist that any biologists can debunk (btw there is no such thing a an evolutionist. Biologist would be the correct term as evolutionary theory in biology is a foundational theory). As for being just a theory, as I previously stated, there is no such thing in science. To be considered a scientific theory a theory must meet a number of specific criteria. The theory of biological evolution meets all those criteria. The most important of which it must have a factual basis. The modern definition of evolutionary theory is a change in allele frequency within a population (i.e. species) over time. That’s an easily observable fact. The mechanism that causes biological evolution, natural selection, is supported by three laws of nature, the laws of inheritance, the laws of variation and the law of superfecundancy which, again, are easily observable facts that no serious scientist disputes.

As for there being no transitional species in the fossil record that’s factually wrong. There are significant numbers in the fossil record. Archaeopteryx and Australopithecus Aferensis are just two examples i can make of the top of my head.

On 99% of genetic mutations being harmful you are again factually wrong. The vast majority of mutation result in pseudo genes that are not genetically expressed. In other words their affect is neutral. A few random genetic mutations are harmful and a few are, overtime adopted into that species genome as expressed physical trait (i.e. change in allele frequency over time).

As for biological evolution being mathematically impossible you’re again factually wrong. That would be a statistical fallacy of calculating the probability of an event occurring which has already happened. Ergo, the mathematical probability of biological evolution occurring is unity or a probability correlation of 1.0 as its already happened.
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For example, if evolution were true, what is the deal with all the fraudulent fossils? Surely there would be no need to "fake" the missing links between species, yet this seems to be a re-occurring theme that evolutionists cannot escape from.​
​
​
Click to expand...

I have no idea of what you mean by fraudulent fossils other than that when fraud has occurred in the biological sciences it has been biologist who discovered the fraud. As for this being a re-occurring theme in biology I defy you to provide the evidence to that effect.

Ultimately Creationist have two fundamental problems in undermining the theory of biological evolution other than its easily observable factual basis.

One is that a modern scientific theory is only valuable as the useful predictions it can make that can be independently verified. You’d be hard pressed to find a scientific theory as useful as biological evolution as it has mad a vast number of independently verified predictions. How else could you explain that virtually all the applied branches of biology are largely or wholly based on evolutionary theory?

Second is that the purpose of evolutionary theory is to provide an over arching explanation that model the natural phenomena of speciation. If you are to debunk evolutionary theory you would need to replace it with an alternate scientific theory that provides more useful predictions than the current biological theory. Good luck with that. Don’t try to claim Creationism or it’s doppelgänger Intelligent Design Creationism as alternate scientific theory as it meets none of the criteria required to be considered science.

Ultimately it’s up to you to provide the independently verified data to us biologist that we can actually use to change our views on the mechanisms that explain speciation. As a person with a graduated education in biology I haven’t seen any coming from the Creationist camp that pass scientific scrutiny in my lifetime.
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Please share you views on this, I am eager to gain in insight and knowledge and that is exactly what this thread is about. I don't want this to turn into a political pissing match. Let's not mock or demean, simply list your argument and your evidence and debate your points as you see fit.

Good luck and God speed!​
​
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So for Creationist it boils down to put up or shut up. Either provide us with a model that works or be ignored by science. The choice is yours.
 
Eagle-Eye said:
That is exactly the reply I would expect from someone who is in denial that there is a higher authority than man. Many things test us on our desire for something, why not the creator? All I can say is if I'm right you lose everything and I gain everything but if I'm wrong I lose nothing.
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Ah, so it IS a game!

Along with the universe, you believe that your god also created morals? Morals -- and the human-created laws that back them up -- are changeable, as human history shows us. Just a look at the doings in the Old Testament tells us that. Human sacrifice (Abraham), public drunkenness (Noah), polygamy and adultery (Solomon and his 700 wives and 600 concubines), slavery (most of the actors in the OT) -- all things we now call immoral and forbid by law.
 
No doubt in my mind that sone sense of intellegent design is behind all this. Does it use sone sense of evolution as part of it ? Sure, why not ?
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Ah, so it IS a game!

Along with the universe, you believe that your god also created morals? Morals -- and the human-created laws that back them up -- are changeable, as human history shows us. Just a look at the doings in the Old Testament tells us that. Human sacrifice (Abraham), public drunkenness (Noah), polygamy and adultery (Solomon and his 700 wives and 600 concubines), slavery (most of the actors in the OT) -- all things we now call immoral and forbid by law.
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Now you are playing the let's be asinine non believers game. you do realize everything you mentioned is a part of man's evolution. Why does it bother you non believers so much that we believe in a supreme being? I believe it's fear you may be wrong so you must deride our beliefs to try to allay your fears!
 
Religious Views on Evolution

Buddhism
Many Buddhists see no inherent conflict between their religious teachings and evolutionary theory.

Catholicism
The Catholic Church generally accepts evolutionary theory as the scientific explanation for the development of all life. However, this acceptance comes with the understanding that natural selection is a God-directed mechanism of biological development and that man’s soul is the divine creation of God.

United Methodist Church
In 2008, the church’s highest legislative body passed a resolution saying that “science’s descriptions of cosmological, geological, and biological evolution are not in conflict with [the church’s] theology.”

Southern Baptist Convention
In 1982, the Southern Baptist Convention issued a resolution rejecting the theory of evolution and stating that creation science “can be presented solely in terms of scientific evidence without any religious doctrines or concepts.”

United Church of Christ
The United Church of Christ finds evolutionary theory and Christian faith to be compatible, embracing evolution as a means “to see our faith in a new way.”

Judaism
While all of the major movements of American Judaism – including the Reconstructionist, Reform, Conservative and Orthodox branches – teach that God is the creator of the universe and all life, Jewish teachings generally do not find an inherent conflict between evolutionary theory and faith.

Islam
While the Koran teaches that Allah created human beings as they appear today, Islamic scholars and followers are divided on the theory of evolution. Theologically conservative Muslims who ascribe to literal interpretations of the Koran generally denounce the evolutionary argument for natural selection, whereas many theologically liberal Muslims believe that while man is divinely created, evolution is not necessarily incompatible with Islamic principles.

The Eastern Orthodox Church
Is divided in two large categories, which might be labeled as compatibilism and dualism. On the one hand, compatibilists hold that evolutionary science and theology are compatible and view them as complementary revelations of God. On the other hand, dualists hold that evolution can be incompatible with faith. They usually argue either that evolutionary science is philosophically based on a kind of naturalism or that God's specific revelation is infallible and therefore trumps the findings of human reason in the case of any conflict between them.

https://www.pewforum.org/2009/02/04/...-on-evolution/

Republicans
Large numbers of Republicans do not believe in evolution.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...w-its-changed/
 
Eagle-Eye said:
Now you are playing the let's be asinine non believers game. you do realize everything you mentioned is a part of man's evolution. Why does it bother you non believers so much that we believe in a supreme being? I believe it's fear you may be wrong so you must deride our beliefs to try to allay your fears!
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If you see derision towards you in my post that's on you. I'm merely questioning the existence of an arbitrary game-playing god who uses us for his amusement. I'm more of a pan-theist than an atheist. "If one god is real, they all are."

I can't speak for other non-Xtians, of course, but personally I don't care what someone believes as long as they don't use that belief to justify being an asshole.
 
Eagle-Eye said:
That is exactly the reply I would expect from someone who is in denial that there is a higher authority than man. Many things test us on our desire for something, why not the creator? All I can say is if I'm right you lose everything and I gain everything but if I'm wrong I lose nothing.
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Unfortunately, you do not speak for all of world Christianity. Some Christians view Satan as a metaphor. Particularly traditionally liberal Christian denominations.

The view of Satan inherited by many fundamentalists are rooted in Medieval mythology and lore and not firmly rooted in actual scripture
 
Cypress said:
Republicans
Large numbers of Republicans do not believe in evolution.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...w-its-changed/
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I'm shocked. Not. Things sure have changed since I was a kid. Back then (R)s were generally devout church-attending ppl, same with (D)s. Yet the (R)s supported the sciences and scientific R&D and voted for ppl who would toss funding towards universities and other institutes doing research. There was no debate about evolution vs creationism in mainstream culture. In fact, I did a science report assignment in 5th grade on the evolution of the horse to much acclaim (I got an A on it, lol). The year was 1963.

Here so we are in the 21st century. Still no flying cars or ppl living on the Moon. Now we have otherwise intelligent, at least partly-educated people trying to convince us that science is bullshit and creationism is just as valid as anything else. That's fine, as long as they keep it out of our schools.
 
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