Excellent news: Clinton and Obama likely to continue trashing each other for months

Little-Acorn

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The more the two Dem candidates spend time pointing out each other's deficiencies, even trivial ones like slight difference in platforms, the worse they will look in the public's eyes, and the less likely they are to gain office where they can put their extreme-left agenda into place.

Kudoes to Hillary for continuing to rip Obama despite her nearly-zero chance of gaining the nomination any more. Her display of how mendacious and self-serving people of her ilk are, is a lesson that will hopefully remain in the voting public's conscience for a long time.

Last time anything like that happened, was when Teddy Kennedy continued to bash rival Jimmy Carter right up to the floor vote in the Democrat convention in 1980. Even after the votes were counted and Carter was the official winner, Kennedy stood at the Massachusetts rostrum with a surly expression on his face as state after state did the usual vote-changing after the winner was known, announcing that all that state's votes now went to Carter. When it came time for Massachusetts to do so, Kennedy snapped "Massachusetts votes for Carter" with a truculent expression, turned and walked off the floor.

I personally feel that the man most responsible for Ronald Reagan getting elected in 1980, next to Reagan himself of course, was Ted Kennedy with that hopelessly self-centered display, tearing down Carter incessantly and calling him "grossly unqualified", etc., for the entire length of the Democrat race for their nomination.

Hopefully Hillary will be the Democrats' next Ted Kennedy. Keep up the good work, Mrs. Clinton! You are doing your country a tremendous favor.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/25/opinion/25brooks.html?_r=2&ref=opinion&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Op-Ed Columnist
The Long Defeat

By DAVID BROOKS
Published: March 25, 2008

Hillary Clinton may not realize it yet, but she’s just endured one of the worst weeks of her campaign.

First, Barack Obama weathered the Rev. Jeremiah Wright affair without serious damage to his nomination prospects. Obama still holds a tiny lead among Democrats nationally in the Gallup tracking poll, just as he did before this whole affair blew up.

Second, Obama’s lawyers successfully prevented re-votes in Florida and Michigan. That means it would be virtually impossible for Clinton to take a lead in either elected delegates or total primary votes.

Third, as Noam Scheiber of The New Republic has reported, most superdelegates have accepted Nancy Pelosi’s judgment that the winner of the elected delegates should get the nomination. Instead of lining up behind Clinton, they’re drifting away. Her lead among them has shrunk by about 60 in the past month, according to Avi Zenilman of Politico.com.

In short, Hillary Clinton’s presidential prospects continue to dim. The door is closing. Night is coming. The end, however, is not near.

Last week, an important Clinton adviser told Jim VandeHei and Mike Allen (also of Politico) that Clinton had no more than a 10 percent chance of getting the nomination. Now, she’s probably down to a 5 percent chance.

Five percent.

Let’s take a look at what she’s going to put her party through for the sake of that 5 percent chance: The Democratic Party is probably going to have to endure another three months of daily sniping. For another three months, we’ll have the Carvilles likening the Obamaites to Judas and former generals accusing Clintonites of McCarthyism. For three months, we’ll have the daily round of résumé padding and sulfurous conference calls. We’ll have campaign aides blurting “blue dress” and only-because-he’s-black references as they let slip their private contempt.

For three more months (maybe more!) the campaign will proceed along in its Verdun-like pattern. There will be a steady rifle fire of character assassination from the underlings, interrupted by the occasional firestorm of artillery when the contest touches upon race, gender or patriotism. The policy debates between the two have been long exhausted, so the only way to get the public really engaged is by poking some raw national wound.

For the sake of that 5 percent, this will be the sourest spring. About a fifth of Clinton and Obama supporters now say they wouldn’t vote for the other candidate in the general election. Meanwhile, on the other side, voters get an unobstructed view of the Republican nominee. John McCain’s approval ratings have soared 11 points. He is now viewed positively by 67 percent of Americans. A month ago, McCain was losing to Obama among independents by double digits in a general election matchup. Now McCain has a lead among this group.

For three more months, Clinton is likely to hurt Obama even more against McCain, without hurting him against herself. And all this is happening so she can preserve that 5 percent chance.

When you step back and think about it, she is amazing. She possesses the audacity of hopelessness.

Why does she go on like this? Does Clinton privately believe that Obama is so incompetent that only she can deliver the policies they both support? Is she simply selfish, and willing to put her party through agony for the sake of her slender chance? Are leading Democrats so narcissistic that they would create bitter stagnation even if they were granted one-party rule?

The better answer is that Clinton’s long rear-guard action is the logical extension of her relentlessly political life.

For nearly 20 years, she has been encased in the apparatus of political celebrity. Look at her schedule as first lady and ever since. Think of the thousands of staged events, the tens of thousands of times she has pretended to be delighted to see someone she doesn’t know, the hundreds of thousands times she has recited empty clichés and exhortatory banalities, the millions of photos she has posed for in which she is supposed to appear empathetic or tough, the billions of politically opportune half-truths that have bounced around her head.

No wonder the Clinton campaign feels impersonal. It’s like a machine for the production of politics. It plows ahead from event to event following its own iron logic. The only question is whether Clinton herself can step outside the apparatus long enough to turn it off and withdraw voluntarily or whether she will force the rest of her party to intervene and jam the gears.

If she does the former, she would surprise everybody with a display of self-sacrifice. Her campaign would cruise along at a lower register until North Carolina, then use that as an occasion to withdraw. If she does not, she would soldier on doggedly, taking down as many allies as necessary.
 
You're excited about 4-8 more years that will bear a strong resemblence to the last 7+?

Weird.

Are you really so crazy that you think whomever is the next president is going to matter either way?

Although personally I would rather stay in Iraq and watch Obama display his ignorance for the next 4 years.
 
"Are you really so crazy that you think whomever is the next president is going to matter either way?"

Nader tried to make that argument in 2000.

Man, was he wrong.
 
Because Nader made it when the nation wasn't fucked either way.

Fair enough, though I would argue there are varying degrees of "fucked." It isn't over. There are 2 very distinct paths we can go in, at least with regard to domestic & foreign policy, and one of those paths very likely leads to a place that, though fucked, may be significantly less fucked than the other path.
 
Fair enough, though I would argue there are varying degrees of "fucked." It isn't over. There are 2 very distinct paths we can go in, at least with regard to domestic & foreign policy, and one of those paths very likely leads to a place that, though fucked, may be significantly less fucked than the other path.

I see McCain as a realist and Obama as an inexperienced idealist. I would rather vote for a realist with bad news than an idealist that will ultimately fail.
 
The '60's did not "fail". They were a mixed bag, like every other decade.

There were some very significant changes that came out of the '60, very lasting & very positive. There were also some spectacular failures, but I wouldn't define the decade by either.
 
Because the 60s failed, as dreamers often do.

The only idealists that are successful are idealists with a plan behind their idealism, not hope as a platform.


Where's McCain's "realism?" I haven't seen it.

As for Obama's only platform being "hope," he's got more detailed proposals on more issues that the so-called "realist" by a wide margin. The problem is that people are too lazy to look for them, including reporters. It's much easier to just say inane bullshit like "all Obama has is hope for a platform" because that doesn't take much effort at all.
 
" he's got more detailed proposals on more issues that the so-called "realist" by a wide margin"

That is very true. It's a lazy mantra by those who just eat the media up with a spoon that he doesn't, and that he's all rhetoric. He has much more detail in his plans than Bush or Kerry ever did, and certainly much more than McCain, who basically admitted today that he doesn't have the foggiest clue on the economy.
 
Where's McCain's "realism?" I haven't seen it.

As for Obama's only platform being "hope," he's got more detailed proposals on more issues that the so-called "realist" by a wide margin. The problem is that people are too lazy to look for them, including reporters. It's much easier to just say inane bullshit like "all Obama has is hope for a platform" because that doesn't take much effort at all.

Because people shouldn't have to "look up" the positions of a candidate-- the candidate should tell us.

We are doing them a favour by electing them, not the other way around, therefore the burden is on them to prove to us that we should vote for them.
 
Because people shouldn't have to "look up" the positions of a candidate-- the candidate should tell us.

We are doing them a favour by electing them, not the other way around, therefore the burden is on them to prove to us that we should vote for them.


Are you a fucking Brit or something? We Americans don't do anyone favours, we do favors. We don't have colour TVs, we have color TV. Got it?

Anyway, part of the problem is that the media is just as lazy as you, they don't bother to go into policy issues, the horserace and character issues are plenty.
 
Because people shouldn't have to "look up" the positions of a candidate-- the candidate should tell us.

We are doing them a favour by electing them, not the other way around, therefore the burden is on them to prove to us that we should vote for them.

Um....he does. Ever watch a debate? How about one of his stump or policy speeches?

Too much to click on a website for you, is it?

Unreal.
 
Um....he does. Ever watch a debate? How about one of his stump or policy speeches?

Too much to click on a website for you, is it?

Unreal.

Yes, I do watch them, and the ones I hear are nothing I want (although I do have to admit that at least in the debates he tries to talk about what he is going to do).

The speeches are all fluff, and, while I am not too lazy to click on a website, I certainly hope that Obama's defense (and your defense for him) if he loses is not that the American people are too lazy to click on a website, but that he is too stupid to talk about his actual plans.
 
Yes, I do watch them, and the ones I hear are nothing I want (although I do have to admit that at least in the debates he tries to talk about what he is going to do).

The speeches are all fluff, and, while I am not too lazy to click on a website, I certainly hope that Obama's defense (and your defense for him) if he loses is not that the American people are too lazy to click on a website, but that he is too stupid to talk about his actual plans.


He talks about his actual plans all the time. The problem is that most people can't follow Obama around and attend the speeches that he makes regarding his policy positions. An intermediary is required to distill that information into something that the voter can read or listen to. The problem is that the media doesn't do policy issues. The media does horserace stories and character issues. That's the problem. It's tough to get issues discussed at all.

Instead we get horeshit about what a pastor said, whether the candidate was actually shot at in the mid 90's or how much of a maverick the candidate is.
 
He talks about his actual plans all the time. The problem is that most people can't follow Obama around and attend the speeches that he makes regarding his policy positions. An intermediary is required to distill that information into something that the voter can read or listen to. The problem is that the media doesn't do policy issues. The media does horserace stories and character issues. That's the problem. It's tough to get issues discussed at all.

Instead we get horeshit about what a pastor said, whether the candidate was actually shot at in the mid 90's or how much of a maverick the candidate is.

In the Democrat debate the positions are pretty similar to each other. Oh there are some little differences here and there but for the most part they are pretty similar. Therefore to differentiate each other the two candidates are going after other things like experience or character issues.
 
He talks about his actual plans all the time.
No, he talks about what should happen--- he never says how.

The problem is that most people can't follow Obama around and attend the speeches that he makes regarding his policy positions.
Which is why he should focus more on talking about his policy positions and less on sound bites-- but that would require effort on his part, eh?

An intermediary is required to distill that information into something that the voter can read or listen to. The problem is that the media doesn't do policy issues. The media does horserace stories and character issues. That's the problem. It's tough to get issues discussed at all.
Yes, blame the media.

Instead we get horeshit about what a pastor said, whether the candidate was actually shot at in the mid 90's or how much of a maverick the candidate is.
I see....so crazy pastors are only relevant when they associated with Republicans, right?
 
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