Faith is not "without evidence" argument

[Ross Dolan]

Not believing in the god about whom I was taught, Frank,
seems much more like a direct observation than a mere belief.


I was taught about a god who was

one, omnipotent, ie, all-powerful, could do or create anything that he wanted,

two, was all loving...loved us all,

three, despite being both omnipotent and all-loving,
created this universe in which his beloved subjects could live.

Do I have to believe anything to know that this can't be true?
Can't we all clearly SEE that this can't be true?

I respect your opinions as always, Frank,
but it's hard to understand why we can't all plainly see
that the aforementioned god can't possibly exist
unless everything we know about logic came to us via pipe dream.

As I have mentioned, that god seems to me to be a cartoon god...much like the gods of the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Norse.

If you want to assert that god cannot possibly exist...okay with me. But if someone demands that you bear the burden of proof, you are in trouble. In the meantime, I agree that it seems that god does not exist...and that would be my guess...if I made guesses on this issue...which I do not.

 

[Cypress]

Not believing in the god about whom I was taught, Frank,
seems much more like a direct observation than a mere belief.


I was taught about a god who was

one, omnipotent, ie, all-powerful, could do or create anything that he wanted,

two, was all loving...loved us all,

three, despite being both omnipotent and all-loving,
created this universe in which his beloved subjects could live.

Do I have to believe anything to know that this can't be true?
Can't we all clearly SEE that this can't be true?

I respect your opinions as always, Frank,
but it's hard to understand why we can't all plainly see
that the aforementioned god can't possibly exist
unless everything we know about logic came to us via pipe dream.

You're describing a Christian God who dresses in a white robe and has a long white beard.

I don't think that's the only possible way to describe a higher organizing principle underlying the cosmos

 

[BidenPresident]

You're describing a Christian God who dresses in a white robe and has a long white beard.

I don't think that's the only possible way to describe a higher organizing principle underlying the cosmos

Yet it is the majority belief in our nation.

 

[gfm7175]

[quotation and emoji spam]

Yup, we've completely broken you. Must suck to have such a weak mind.

 

[gfm7175]

You're describing a Christian God who dresses in a white robe and has a long white beard.

Not 'a' Christian God... 'THE' Christian God... There's only one.

You've seen the Christian God yet you don't believe that it exists?

I don't think that's the only possible way to describe a higher organizing principle underlying the cosmos

Right, as something to that effect has been described in many different ways over history, and all of those ways require faith to believe.

 

[Damocles]

I'd love to see a miracle, real magic, ghosts or anything else from the supernatural.

I would too, if it was going to convince me it would have to be something truly special though.

 

[Cypress]

I'd love to see a miracle, real magic, ghosts or anything else from the supernatural.

I am in awe at the precise mathmatical organization of the universe, and the vast number of factors that had to converge for life and matter to form.
I don't see any reason a universe couldn't be just pure energy or plasma, and not beholden to universal physical constants and precise mathmatical order.


Einstein famously said that the most incomprehensible fact of the universe is that it is comprehensible.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I would too, if it was going to convince me it would have to be something truly special though.

Agreed. So far, nothing has been convincing. Being the lone survivor of a crash that killed a hundred people isn't a "miracle". It's just luck. The odds.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I am in awe at the precise mathmatical organization of the universe, and the vast number of factors that had to converge for life and matter to form.
I don't see any reason a universe couldn't be just pure energy or plasma, and not beholden to universal physical constants and precise mathmatical order.


Einstein famously said that the most incomprehensible fact of the universe is that it is comprehensible.

Given the multiverse theory, there are universes of pure energy or plasma, but they are dead universes.

The whole theory about a million chimps typing a million years and coming up with the entire works Shakespeare comes to mind. It's not an intention, just random chance.

Survivor's guilt is "why me"? The answer is "why not?" The odds favored one over others. Just pure frickin' luck. Our universe is lucky.

 

[Into the Night]

Into the Night=Stalker

This behavior should be banned.

You are talking about The Sock.

 

[Cypress]

Given the multiverse theory, there are universes of pure energy or plasma, but they are dead universes.

The whole theory about a million chimps typing a million years and coming up with the entire works Shakespeare comes to mind. It's not an intention, just random chance.

Survivor's guilt is "why me"? The answer is "why not?" The odds favored one over others. Just pure frickin' luck. Our universe is lucky.

Either there are multiple universes and we are in the one that fluked into being tuned for matter and life, or there is one universe that is curiously finely tuned and organized for matter and life.

The monkeys typing Shakespeare is just a thought experiment that doesn't work out when you do the math. Even with trillions of monkeys and quadrillions of years of time, the chances are vanishingly small a Shakespeare play would be typed out. I think it is supposed to come down to people just underestimating exponential function and probability theory.

 

[Into the Night]

I'd love to see a miracle, real magic, ghosts or anything else from the supernatural.

If you want to see real magic, I know a couple of magicians in Las Vegas you should see. They're pretty good and entertaining.

 

[Into the Night]

I would argue that they are facts by definition, not just to you and me.

'Fact' does not mean 'Universal Truth'. A 'fact' is nothing more than an assumed predicate.
You and I assume that predicate. To The Sock, he does not assume that predicate, but takes argument with it, making that 'fact' an argument.

People use facts to shorten the conversation, much like we use pronouns instead of nouns.

Facts are not a proof.
Facts are not a Universal Truth.

A fact is, of course, a fact by definition. A lot of people do accept your facts as facts. A lot of people don't.

 

[Into the Night]

@CRYpress & Dutch

Wow. It seems that IBDaMann, Into the Night, and I have long since completely broken the both of you down to the point of incessant spamming. You both used to, at the very least, be able to form sentences in Liberal, but have long since been broken from even THAT pathetic little capability.

Who knew that three forum users could have SOOOOOOOOOO much control over both of your heads??

No wonder the rent is free...

They are the same person. It's just one fucked up head.

 

[gfm7175]

Given the multiverse theory, there are universes of pure energy or plasma, but they are dead universes.

The whole theory about a million chimps typing a million years and coming up with the entire works Shakespeare comes to mind. It's not an intention, just random chance.

Survivor's guilt is "why me"? The answer is "why not?" The odds favored one over others. Just pure frickin' luck. Our universe is lucky.

Either there are multiple universes and we are in the one that fluked into being tuned for matter and life, or there is one universe that is curiously finely tuned and organized for matter and life.

The monkeys typing Shakespeare is just a thought experiment that doesn't work out when you do the math. Even with trillions of monkeys and quadrillions of years of time, the chances are vanishingly small a Shakespeare play would be typed out. I think it is supposed to come down to people just underestimating exponential function and probability theory.

Mantra 50 -- Public Masturbation

 

[ZenMode]

'Fact' does not mean 'Universal Truth'. A 'fact' is nothing more than an assumed predicate.
You and I assume that predicate. To The Sock, he does not assume that predicate, but takes argument with it, making that 'fact' an argument.

People use facts to shorten the conversation, much like we use pronouns instead of nouns.

Facts are not a proof.
Facts are not a Universal Truth.

A fact is, of course, a fact by definition. A lot of people do accept your facts as facts. A lot of people don't.

So, 2+2 may not actually equal 4?

 

[Cypress]

I love Masturbation!

Bulverism

Bulverism fallacy. Bigotry.

Bulverism. Bigotry. False Authority.

bigotry, bulverism

 

[IBDaMann]

So, 2+2 may not actually equal 4?

That's a stupid question. Into the Night just finished explaining (correctly) that facts are not universal truths, and your question reveals that, to best your imagination can offer, the only other option is that facts are universal falsehoods.

Logic is not your strong suit. Please ask me how I know.

 

[ZenMode]

This is another interesting aspect of this forum. (Let's set aside Doc's various "issues" as he has many) but indeed the Bible seems clear on a "literal" basis of the existence of a physical hell etc. But most modern theologians seem to be of a mixed bag in how literal that actually is. There's a strong current of belief in damnation as being "extinction of the self" after death or "disassociation from God" as the ultimate punishment. Not quite as terrifying to an atheist who thinks that when they die they just disappear and cease to exist.

So it COULD be that Doc is of that stripe in his faith (whatever it is...I don't think he's ever clearly stated his beliefs...but that's par for the course with him). I would cut some slack on that front. But you are correct, literally it is in the Bible that way...but then the Bible also contains LITERAL examples of talking donkeys and talking snakes, most of which I'm certain we can all agree are metaphorical (except small hyperliteralist sects).

Otherwise I'd not bother trying to have a serious conversation with Doc. He's only on here to spread his bile and hatred. He gets off on it for some strange reason. He once posted the word "cocksucker" in reply to my post like a couple dozen times. It was weird. He's a "special case" if you know what I mean.

I would bet the farm that the writers of the Bible absolutely and unequivocally believed in a literal heaven and hell. They believed that Noah built a cruise ship with no power tools, people talked to animals and bushes, etc There are Christians today who still believe the Bible is the literal and inerrant word of God, despite a laundry list of contradictions, errors and inconsistencies contained within. There are books dedicated to explaining away all of the "oopsies" in the Bible and, no matter how silly the explanations, if you want to believe the Bible left the hands of god and floated down from heaven, those explanations do the job.

There are fewer and fewer of those dogmatic Christians today. Polling shows that more believe in a literal heaven than a literal hell, which is odd because, again, the Bible writers absolutely believed in them... of course, they also buried animals under buildings for good luck and couldn't explain where the sun went at night.

OTOH, there are Christians who acknowledge the Bible is anything but inerrant or divine, was written by man, is full of errors and made up stories but they still believe that the "God" of the Bible exists.

The Bible is clear that you have to believe in the Christian God to be saved, heaven and hell are real and God is going to return one day to judge mankind. Those who don't pass will be condemned to the eternal lake of fire.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

If you want to see real magic, I know a couple of magicians in Las Vegas you should see. They're pretty good and entertaining.

Mantra 5 bulverism

Mantra 1a.

Mantra 4a.

One of the "miscellaneous" documents on that site is Into the Night's mantra list.