Faith is not "without evidence" argument

[Ross Dolan]

That pure luck is often confused with being a miracle.

Unfortunately, correct. Luckily, not by intelligent people.

A building collapses; 100 people are killed. A child is pulled unharmed from the rubble. Miracle or luck? I say luck. There is no such thing as supernatural, magical or other violations of the laws of the Universe involved.

I'm going to leave that alone, Doc. I have made known my feelings that anything that exists...is natural...that there is no such thing as supernatural...by definition.

But...that was not the part I was asking about. You also wrote, "Consider life on Earth. Miracle or just lucky? Out of trillions of stars in the Universe, we happen to be on a planet with life. Go figure. LOL"

That is the part I was questioning.

 

[Ross Dolan]

If life is inevitable in the presence of liquid water and energy, it should be reasonably ubiquitous throughout the galaxy.

If advanced intelligence is a consequence of evolution, there should be advanced life in the galaxy besides us.

I'm hoping there is.

If we never find any, I think it means we have to rethink a lot of our assumptions.

Okay. You had written, "That's the 64,000 dollar question. Why is life seemingly so rare, and why does advanced intelligent life seem inexplicably practically absent from the galaxy."

I was wondering why you supposed life is seemingly so rare...and why you suppose advanced intelligent life is practically absent from the galaxy.

The galaxy may be teeming with such life. We have no idea. We just know (actually very little) about our own solar system...which may be an outlier. Most star systems may have several planets with life.

We do not know.

 

[gfm7175]

I should ask [Terry & Cypress] how that's working out for them. Better yet, I should ask of JPP who now reveres them.

Let's just say that I do not revere Terry & Crypress. Spamming quotations and the emoji is not a very good way to convince me of anything other than the spammer being a certifiable moron who is deserving of mocking.

 

[Cypress]

That pure luck is often confused with being a miracle.

A building collapses; 100 people are killed. A child is pulled unharmed from the rubble. Miracle or luck? I say luck. There is no such thing as supernatural, magical or other violations of the laws of the Universe involved.

Here's how the question and answer could be framed:

1) There was a Big Bang. Finely tuned, life-giving physical parameters blinked into existence. Period, end of story. Nothing to wonder about.

2) It is statistically implausible that physical parameters blinked into existence, all somehow converging on the support of matter and life. Inflationary hypothesis suggests a multiverse is possible. String theory seems to suggest a universe with different physics is possible. We just happen to have found ourselves in the universe with life giving parameters.

3) A metaphysical organizing principle, something beyond physics and human comprehension, underlies the origin of our cosmos.


There's problems with all three of these, but that's what makes if fun to think about!

 

[BidenPresident]

Here's how the question and answer could be framed:

1) There was a Big Bang. Finely tuned, life-giving physical parameters blinked into existence. Period, end of story. Nothing to wonder about.

2) It is statistically implausible that physical parameters blinked into existence, all somehow converging on the support of matter and life. Inflationary hypothesis suggests a multiverse is possible. String theory seems to suggest a universe with different physics is possible. We just happen to have found ourselves in the universe with life giving parameters.

3) A metaphysical organizing principle, something beyond physics and human comprehension, underlies the origin of our cosmos.


There's problems with all three of these, but that's what makes if fun to think about!

Why is life on the planet any more mysterious than anything else in the universe existing?

 

[Cypress]

Why is life on the planet any more mysterious than anything else in the universe existing?

Life seems to be either unique or exceedingly rare in the galaxy.


Our mere "improbable" existence can be used to make deductions about the properties of the universe.

The universe seems to be finely tuned to allow for complexity, matter, biology.

If you changed some of the universal physical parameters by just a little, you could have a universe of just pure hydrogen, pure energy, or plasma.

 

[gfm7175]

Before I assemble a more thorough response, can you clarify what you mean by this:

"Polls show nothing. They are random number generators, nothing more."

I know that you asked Into the Night and not myself, but I think I can be of assistance here.

The "TLDR" version is that polls only pertain to a very limited scope. Beyond that very limited scope, which polls always get misapplied to, they amount to nothing more than a group of made up numbers.


The "dig a bit deeper" version is this:

Let's say that a particular poll within the State of Wisconsin taken from Sept 21st - Sept 27th 2023 asks the question "Do you support the legalization of access to safe and effective abortion services?" and allows for the responses of "yes", "no", and "undecided". Let's say that this particular poll happened to have 1,000 respondents and that 600 people (60%) responded "yes", 350 people (35%) responded "no", and 50 people (5%) responded "undecided". How this poll gets falsely portrayed by your favorite leftist fake news organization of choice is: "The people of Wisconsin have spoken, and they OVERWHELMINGLY SUPPORT abortion".

The truth? Anything but... Why? First off, results will vary depending on the specific wording of the question asked. Reword the question to: "Do you support the killing of living humans who have not committed any crime nor expressed any desire to die?" and you might instead see results of 100 people (10%) responding "yes", 800 people (80%) responding "no", and 100 people (10%) responding "undecided". Now, do "the people of Wisconsin" "OVERWHELMINGLY OPPOSE abortion"?

Secondly, the poll is only asking 1,000 Wisconsinites. The other roughly 5.9 million Wisconsinites were not asked.

Thirdly, the poll was taken during the Sept 21st - 27th 2023 time period. People's political views can and do change over time, and current events (as well as a number of other things) can also affect people's views.

Fourthly, the poll only allowed for the absolutist responses of "yes", "no", and "undecided". Allowing for other more nuanced responses, such as "only during the first trimester" or "only before a detectable heartbeat", would yield different results. This goes hand in hand with the specific wording of a question and the issues associated with that.

For these reasons and more, polls are essentially a group of random numbers that people take as gospel, preaching them to the world so long as they happen to line up with the preacher's favored point of view.

Also, should I assume that you are a Christian and are among those who believe the Bible is inerrant?

ITN can speak for himself, but as for me, I do consider myself to be a Christian. As for "the Bible is inerrant", I do believe that the Word of God itself (you could call it "The Bible") is inerrant (because the source of it is God). With that being said, I also believe that "Bibles" (KJV, NIV, ESV, NASB, etc) do contain errors (whether they be translational, printing, or otherwise, because the source of them is man).

 

[BidenPresident]

Life seems to be either unique or exceedingly rare in the galaxy.


Our mere "improbable" existence can be used to make deductions about the properties of the universe.

The universe seems to be finely tuned to allow for complexity, matter, biology.

If you changed some of the universal physical parameters by just a little, you could have a universe of just pure hydrogen, pure energy, or plasma.

Okay, not seeing the problem.

 

[AProudLefty]

I know that you asked Into the Night and not myself, but I think I can be of assistance here.

The "TLDR" version is that polls only pertain to a very limited scope. Beyond that very limited scope, which polls always get misapplied to, they amount to nothing more than a group of made up numbers.


The "dig a bit deeper" version is this:

Let's say that a particular poll within the State of Wisconsin taken from Sept 21st - Sept 27th 2023 asks the question "Do you support the legalization of access to safe and effective abortion services?" and allows for the responses of "yes", "no", and "undecided". Let's say that this particular poll happened to have 1,000 respondents and that 600 people (60%) responded "yes", 350 people (35%) responded "no", and 50 people (5%) responded "undecided". How this poll gets falsely portrayed by your favorite leftist fake news organization of choice is: "The people of Wisconsin have spoken, and they OVERWHELMINGLY SUPPORT abortion".

The truth? Anything but... Why? First off, results will vary depending on the specific wording of the question asked. Reword the question to: "Do you support the killing of living humans who have not committed any crime nor expressed any desire to die?" and you might instead see results of 100 people (10%) responding "yes", 800 people (80%) responding "no", and 100 people (10%) responding "undecided". Now, do "the people of Wisconsin" "OVERWHELMINGLY OPPOSE abortion"?

Secondly, the poll is only asking 1,000 Wisconsinites. The other roughly 5.9 million Wisconsinites were not asked.

Thirdly, the poll was taken during the Sept 21st - 27th 2023 time period. People's political views can and do change over time, and current events (as well as a number of other things) can also affect people's views.

Fourthly, the poll only allowed for the absolutist responses of "yes", "no", and "undecided". Allowing for other more nuanced responses, such as "only during the first trimester" or "only before a detectable heartbeat", would yield different results. This goes hand in hand with the specific wording of a question and the issues associated with that.

For these reasons and more, polls are essentially a group of random numbers that people take as gospel, preaching them to the world so long as they happen to line up with the preacher's favored point of view.


ITN can speak for himself, but as for me, I do consider myself to be a Christian. As for "the Bible is inerrant", I do believe that the Word of God itself (you could call it "The Bible") is inerrant (because the source of it is God). With that being said, I also believe that "Bibles" (KJV, NIV, ESV, NASB, etc) do contain errors (whether they be translational, printing, or otherwise, because the source of them is man).

Someone never took a course in statistics.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't think a building collapse is a good analogy. A building can have a finite number of human occupants. Maybe a few hundred?

There are practically an infinite number of values the critical density of the universe could have taken. It seems to have taken presicely the ratio 1.000..., resulting in flat spacetime at the observable cosmic scale. Similar argument can be made for the pantheon of physical constants.

We can't even imagine what science will look like in 200 years, so I think the question of the origin of the natural laws and the fine tuning of our observable universe are worth leaving on the table

You post about "the Universe" like it's the only one. If we consider an infinite number of Universes in the multiverse, then some will be dead, some will generate abundant life and some will have something in between. If we only consider our Universe as the only one, then that forces the God question...not that an all-powerful force couldn't have created an infinite number of universes as easily as a single one.

 

[gfm7175]

Someone never took a course in statistics.

You're right... I'm an uneducated "ultra-MAGA Trumptard" and you are a very educated "proud lefty" who knows so much more than I do. That puts you in a position to be able to teach me what you know so that I can come to know it too.

Thus, here is your chance to educate me about how polling works and how it can somehow hold any sort of meaning beyond what I have explained in my prior comment.

The floor is yours.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't think a building collapse is a good analogy. A building can have a finite number of human occupants. Maybe a few hundred?

There are practically an infinite number of values the critical density of the universe could have taken. It seems to have taken presicely the ratio 1.000..., resulting in flat spacetime at the observable cosmic scale. Similar argument can be made for the pantheon of physical constants.

We can't even imagine what science will look like in 200 years, so I think the question of the origin of the natural laws and the fine tuning of our observable universe are worth leaving on the table

You post about "the Universe" like it's the only one. If we consider an infinite number of Universes in the multiverse, then some will be dead, some will generate abundant life and some will have something in between. If we only consider our Universe as the only one, then that forces the God question...not that an all-powerful force couldn't have created an infinite number of universes as easily as a single one.

As mankind continues to explore our universe, given we survive our own excesses, then I have no doubt many fascinating things will be discovered about the great unknown.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Unfortunately, correct. Luckily, not by intelligent people.



I'm going to leave that alone, Doc. I have made known my feelings that anything that exists...is natural...that there is no such thing as supernatural...by definition.

But...that was not the part I was asking about. You also wrote, "Consider life on Earth. Miracle or just lucky? Out of trillions of stars in the Universe, we happen to be on a planet with life. Go figure. LOL"

That is the part I was questioning.

It's the kid in the collapsed building scenario. The kid will grow up wondering "why me?" when everyone else died. That's a common survivor's guilt problem, but it's just the odds. Nothing special, just lucky.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You're right... I'm an uneducated "ultra-MAGA Trumptard" and you are a very educated "proud lefty" who knows so much more than I do.

^^^
Sybil gets something right.

FWIW, polls are snapshots in time. Accurate to an extent, but, as the saying goes, the only poll that matters is election day.

Most of the Trumptards laugh at polls and point out that Hillary "was supposed to win". They are idiots. Sure, Hillary was polling ahead but 1) her lead was within the margin of error and 2) the Bernie factor played into the election. Bernie voters either stayed home or voted for Trump out of disgust of the DNC corruption.

Ergo, the polls were accurate for when they were taken, but they don't indicate who will actually vote on election day.

 

[Cypress]

You post about "the Universe" like it's the only one. If we consider an infinite number of Universes in the multiverse, then some will be dead, some will generate abundant life and some will have something in between. If we only consider our Universe as the only one, then that forces the God question...not that an all-powerful force couldn't have created an infinite number of universes as easily as a single one.

The multiverse is a highly speculative assumption, but maybe someday we can derive indirect evidence confirming or refuting it. A few years ago, some researchers were trying to look for statistical patterns in the CMB which might suggest our universe is interacting with other universes, but I think the results were inconclusive

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Let's just say that I do not revere Terry & Crypress. Spamming quotations and the emoji is not a very good way to convince me of anything other than the spammer being a certifiable moron who is deserving of mocking.

Of course you don't, Sybil. You're cray-cray and dislike anyone who points it out.

Answer the question, Terry.

Hope Terry, I mean, Dutch Uncle doesn't notice... Whoopsie.

So, are you saying that Terry (aka Dutch), is an example of AUI (Artificial UnIntelligence)?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Life seems to be either unique or exceedingly rare in the galaxy.


Our mere "improbable" existence can be used to make deductions about the properties of the universe.

The universe seems to be finely tuned to allow for complexity, matter, biology.

If you changed some of the universal physical parameters by just a little, you could have a universe of just pure hydrogen, pure energy, or plasma.

Agreed. That fact our best scientists have been looking for centuries now and come up with zip is astounding in itself.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Life seems to be either unique or exceedingly rare in the galaxy.

Whence this deduction?

I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can deduce that life is abundant or rare in our galaxy?

How?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The multiverse is a highly speculative assumption, but maybe someday we can derive indirect evidence confirming or refuting it. A few years ago, some researchers were trying to look for statistical patterns in the CMB which might suggest our universe is interacting with other universes, but I think the results were inconclusive

I'm inclined to play the odds; it would be exceedingly odd if ours was the only Universe. To work as well as it does would mean an "intelligent design" was at work. If there were an infinite number of Universes, some with life, some dead, then ours wouldn't be so unique.

 

[AProudLefty]

You're right... I'm an uneducated "ultra-MAGA Trumptard" and you are a very educated "proud lefty" who knows so much more than I do. That puts you in a position to be able to teach me what you know so that I can come to know it too.

Thus, here is your chance to educate me about how polling works and how it can somehow hold any sort of meaning beyond what I have explained in my prior comment.

The floor is yours.

I have a degree in mathematics. You have proven you have never taken a course in statistics.