FDR's four freedoms...

What is more important to those of us with any latent or manifest curiousity at all is why people feel the need to believe in such myths. What purpose do such myths serve??? Why do people fear their own creative capacity??? Why do they feel the need for some other power???? Some Super super-ego as it were to watch over them and keep track of them and what they are doing????? What is that about anyway???? Why are we going to heaven or hell instead of just dying and and being burned or buried and rotting away like the rest of the animal kingdom evidently does...We are, after all, still only flesh and bones, except for that rather creative abstraction that we have endowed ourselves with, the soul. But doing so doesn't make the soul any more concrete forall that creative effort.

I would submit there is a legitimate reason this human fascination with spiritual faith baffles you and confounds you. Indeed, inherent human behavioral characteristics, are never without purpose or function, and for a scientific mind to try and understand this phenomenon while not accepting God, is extremely difficult to resolve with logic, I understand. Perhaps this is why even Einstein admitted that God doesn't roll the dice?
None of this indicates the gravity or even the possibility that your version or interpretation could or even might be true in any objective sense all it does is show how ignorant and unwilling to face reality when it comes to the death of the human being most of us really are. As far as objective history teaches us there is no such thing as a soul, as hauntings or as even any kind of survival after death. Does anyone think for a minute that if such after death things were possible, that the early victims of the Holocaust would not have made some kind of effort to warn the later victims about the existence of Hitler's death camps and ovens. Don't you think that things would be even a little bit different in this world if there was such a thing as an all-knowing and all-powerful being in charge. For a guy who doesn't play dice he sure seems to believe in chance. I mean why would an all-knowing and all-powerful being countenance and condone the senseless murder of six million Jews more or less and no more???? Why countenance and condone the enslavement of millions of people of Black skin while allowing your own teachings to be used as the support and argument for this enslavement and then suddenly decide to end it at least partially with a war that kills over half a million??? All-knowing, all-powerful??? If this is the best he can do, if in fact he is a he as white males have always portended; another projective reality no doubt or perhaps just wishful thinking, I hardly think this evidence indicates an all-knowing, all powerful being; but just another human being full of human arrogance and failings more likely as confused as our current president.

And the asking or posing of questions does not in and of itself make the questioner baffled or confounded, only willing to pose questions that most people would rather not pose. History tells us that as we have progressed in our understanding of both science and nature we have come to understand things that once were attributed to the gods. We no longer need a God of Thunder because we now know what causes thunder, so it is no longer a mysterious occurrence whose origin baffles us. Nor do we need a God of the Sea, etc. Now our mysteries are more abstract, more philosophical if you will, and so we need a God who reflects and aids us in some way in explaining or answering those still unanswered or unexplained mysteries. Someone who can be the container for everything we don't know; since it is like that great romantic poet John Keats said so many years ago when speaking of the superior man, or what he called the "Man of Achievement" that is one who had "Negative Capability...when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, Mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason." It is my belief as it was John Keats' in December of 1817, that such men are few and far between. God represents the ultimate reach, when all else fails these others, who are not capable of remaining for any time at all in such a state.

The one thing that really separates the true believers from others is their certitude. You my good man, demonstrate more certitude than most posters here. Why is that??? Do you ever feel even the slightest twinge of doubt or ambivalence??? If so, I have never witnessed it???

Even as I argue for a specific position I am continuously struck by the fact that I could be wrong, or that my facts could be wrong or that I may be just so full of myself that I can't see the forest for the trees or that I might simply be talking right out my ass. Indeed, I have been wrong numerous times here and have been mistaken about my facts on numerous occasions (no doubt you will take this confession and run with it to God only knows where [metaphorically speaking of course]).

But according to all you continue to say here, you have never been wrong or mistaken or confused or confounded about anything, like Bush you seem infallible. I get the sense, BILLO, that you think you are always right about everything. Unfortunately you are not, no one can be, you would do well to study Keats's admonition carefully; it's ok to not be so sure. The real trick is to not be paralyzed by your doubt...that's all. I of course am still working on that one.
 
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None of this indicates the gravity or even the possibility that your version or interpretation could or even might be true in any objective sense all it does is show how ignorant and unwilling to face reality when it comes to the death of the human being most of us really are. As far as objective history teaches us there is no such thing as a soul, as hauntings or as even any kind of survival after death. Does anyone think for a minute that if such after death things were possible, that the early victims of the Holocaust would not have made some kind of effort to warn the later victims about the existence of Hitler's death camps and ovens. Don't you think that things would be even a little bit different in this world if there was such a thing as an all-knowing and all-powerful being in charge. For a guy who doesn't play dice he sure seems to believe in chance. I mean why would an all-knowing and all-powerful being countenance and condone the senseless murder of six million Jews more or less and no more????. Why countenance and condone the enslavement of millions of people of Black skin while allowing your own teachings to be used as the support and argument for this enslavement and then suddenly decide to end it at least partially with a war that kills over half a million??? All-knowing, all-powerful??? If this is the best he can do, if in fact he is a he as white males have always portended; another projective reality no doubt or perhaps just wishful thinking, I hardly think this evidence indicates an all-knowing, all powerful being; but just another human being full of human arrogance and failings more likely as confused as our current president.

And the asking or posing of questions does not in and of itself make the questioner baffled or confounded, only willing to pose questions that most people would rather not pose. History tells us that as we have progressed in in out understanding of both science and nature we have come to understand things that once were attributed to the gods. We no longer need a God of Thunder because we now know what causes thunder, so it is no longer a mysterious occurrence whose origin baffles us. Nor do we need a God of the Sea, etc. Now we our mysteries are more abstract, more philosophical if you will, and so we need a God who reflects and aids us in some way in explaining or answering those still unanswered or unexplained mysteries. Someone who can be the container for everything we don't know; since it is like that great romantic poet John Keats said so many years ago when speaking of the superior man what he called the "Man of Achievement" that is "Negative Capability...when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, Mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason." It is my belief as it was John Keats' in December of 1817, that such men are few and far between. God represents the ultimate reach, when all else fails these others, who are not capable of remaining for any time at all in such a state.

The one thing that really separates the true believers from others is their certitude. You my good man, demonstrate more certitude than most posters here. Why is that??? Do you ever feel even the slightest twinge of doubt or ambivalence??? I have never witnessed it???

Even as I argue for a specific position I am continuously struck by the fact that I could be wrong, or that my facts could be wrong or that I may be just so full of myself that I can't see the forest for the trees or that I might simply be talking right out my ass. Indeed, I have been wrong numerous times here and have been mistaken about my facts on numerous occasions (no doubt you will take this confession and run with it to God only knows where [metaphorically speaking of course]).

But according to all you continue to say here, you have never been wrong or mistaken or confused or confounded about anything, like Bush you seem infallible. I get the sense that that you think you are always right about everything. Unfortunately you are not, no one can be, you would do well to study Keats's admonition carefully; it's ok to not be so sure. The real trick is to not be paralyzed by your doubt...that's all. I of course am still working on that one.

You write the most absorbing posts. If I didn't already have a boyfriend, I would set my cap for you.
 
Even as I argue for a specific position I am continuously struck by the fact that I could be wrong, or that my facts could be wrong or that I may be just so full of myself that I can't see the forest for the trees or that I might simply be talking right out my ass.

Well, at least it's good you realize this, it explains why you seem to be such a clueless idiot.

For instance: History tells us that as we have progressed in in out understanding of both science and nature we have come to understand things that once were attributed to the gods.

Did you ever ask yourself, if this is so, why do we still have such a vibrant relationship between people and Gods? You half-heartily tried to explain it away by saying we need something to explain what we can't explain, but think deeper, why is that? Why do we require something? Could it be, it is our nature because that something does exist? I am at least willing to entertain that possibility, you have closed your mind to it completely, insisting it isn't possible, because your science doesn't prove it... yet, in a sense, your science can't refute it or explain it away.
 
Even as I argue for a specific position I am continuously struck by the fact that I could be wrong, or that my facts could be wrong or that I may be just so full of myself that I can't see the forest for the trees or that I might simply be talking right out my ass.

Well, at least it's good you realize this, it explains why you seem to be such a clueless idiot.

For instance: History tells us that as we have progressed in in out understanding of both science and nature we have come to understand things that once were attributed to the gods.

Did you ever ask yourself, if this is so, why do we still have such a vibrant relationship between people and Gods? You half-heartily tried to explain it away by saying we need something to explain what we can't explain, but think deeper, why is that? Why do we require something? Could it be, it is our nature because that something does exist? I am at least willing to entertain that possibility, you have closed your mind to it completely, insisting it isn't possible, because your science doesn't prove it... yet, in a sense, your science can't refute it or explain it away.

I'll tell you why Dixie. There are two things the human mind is incapable of comprehending. Infinity and eternity.

When you die, if there is nothing after death, you will be non-existent for enternity. The human mind cannot comprehend this, and it is terrifying. Therefore, it invents a God, who runs some sort of paradise in the sky that nobody but dead people can see. And ifyou are very very good, (and I heard he keeps a list, but I do not know if he checks it twice) you will go there after you die, and spend eternity dancing around on clouds with all of your loved ones, including the ones you miss so badly because they died before you did.

It's sort of like Santa Clause for grown-ups.
 
As far as objective history teaches us there is no such thing as a soul, as hauntings or as even any kind of survival after death.

Really? There have never been hauntings reported? Where is the definitive study on the existence of a soul, I would like to take a look? And why is it, from as far back as we can track human history, people are ceremonially buried in rituals, often with worldly items and gifts to carry into the afterlife? You are claiming history doesn't illustrate this? History is full of this!

Here is what you are looking for... We have no historic proof of something which, by definition, requires faith. Interestingly, if we had proof, it wouldn't require faith.

Does anyone think for a minute that if such after death things were possible, that the early victims of the Holocaust would not have made some kind of effort to warn the later victims about the existence of Hitler's death camps and ovens. Don't you think that things would be even a little bit different in this world if there was such a thing as an all-knowing and all-powerful being in charge.

You are trying to apply human logic and standards to God. This doesn't wash, because God is infallible, humans are fallible. Dead humans have no more right of self-determination than you do, so they would be unable to warn others of the holocaust. Living humans are blessed by God, with free will. Punishment for worldly defiance of God, is provided through eternal damnation to hell, God allows you to make your own choices regarding it.
 
I'll tell you why Dixie. There are two things the human mind is incapable of comprehending. Infinity and eternity.

When you die, if there is nothing after death, you will be non-existent for enternity. The human mind cannot comprehend this, and it is terrifying.


Why do you suppose it is terrifying? It doesn't matter if you are dead, right? And why can't the human mind comprehend this? After all, our advancement and civilization, we still have an enormous number of humans, who seem to need spiritual belief and after-life. Science dictates there is a purpose for every human behavioral trait, so what is the explanation here?
 
As far as objective history teaches us there is no such thing as a soul, as hauntings or as even any kind of survival after death.

Really? There have never been hauntings reported? Where is the definitive study on the existence of a soul, I would like to take a look? And why is it, from as far back as we can track human history, people are ceremonially buried in rituals, often with worldly items and gifts to carry into the afterlife? You are claiming history doesn't illustrate this? History is full of this!

Here is what you are looking for... We have no historic proof of something which, by definition, requires faith. Interestingly, if we had proof, it wouldn't require faith.

Sort of like all those WMDs, HUH?


Does anyone think for a minute that if such after death things were possible, that the early victims of the Holocaust would not have made some kind of effort to warn the later victims about the existence of Hitler's death camps and ovens. Don't you think that things would be even a little bit different in this world if there was such a thing as an all-knowing and all-powerful being in charge.

You are trying to apply human logic and standards to God. This doesn't wash, because God is infallible, humans are fallible.

SSSSSHHH, Don't ever tell George this!!!!!! He really believes he is infallible!!!!

Dead humans have no more right of self-determination than you do, so they would be unable to warn others of the holocaust. Living humans are blessed by God, with free will. Punishment for worldly defiance of God, is provided through eternal damnation to hell, God allows you to make your own choices regarding it.

Well, I guess you have agreed that I and millions like me have no right of self-determination. I blame the sytem; you blame God. I still think the system is more relevant based on the number of prayers offered up each week to God to help the poor and indigent and still nothing...I'm sticking with the system, change the system and the plight of poor people will change. Pray and simply heat up old church buildings...
 
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...And ifyou are very very good, (and I heard he keeps a list, but I do not know if he checks it twice) you will go there after you die, and spend eternity dancing around on clouds with all of your loved ones, including the ones you miss so badly because they died before you did.

It's sort of like Santa Clause for grown-ups.

The basis for the Christian-era Santa Claus is Bishop Nicholas of Smyrna (Izmir), in what is now Turkey. Nicholas lived in the 4th century A.D. He was very rich, generous, and loving toward children. Often he gave joy to poor children by throwing gifts in through their windows.

Was this a real person? Yes. Now, there might not be a big fat man in a red suit, who travels the world on Dec. 24th in a sleigh pulled by reindeer, to come down the chimney and bring toys to the good little boys and girls, but Bishop Nicholas of Smyrna did exist and was a real person. To argue that Santa Claus was merely made up by capitalist American opportunists to generate sales in the slow months of winter, well... that is an opinion, not a complete fact. Because you happen to think belief in God is like belief in Santa Claus, is an opinion as well, and you are entitled to it, just don't try to pass it off as a complete fact.
 
Well, I guess you have agreed that I and millions like me have no right of self-determination.

No, I said that dead people certainly have no more than you.
 
The basis for the Christian-era Santa Claus is Bishop Nicholas of Smyrna (Izmir), in what is now Turkey. Nicholas lived in the 4th century A.D. He was very rich, generous, and loving toward children. Often he gave joy to poor children by throwing gifts in through their windows.

Was this a real person? Yes. Now, there might not be a big fat man in a red suit, who travels the world on Dec. 24th in a sleigh pulled by reindeer, to come down the chimney and bring toys to the good little boys and girls, but Bishop Nicholas of Smyrna did exist and was a real person. To argue that Santa Claus was merely made up by capitalist American opportunists to generate sales in the slow months of winter, well... that is an opinion, not a complete fact. Because you happen to think belief in God is like belief in Santa Claus, is an opinion as well, and you are entitled to it, just don't try to pass it off as a complete fact.

"I've never met a man, who knew so much about nothing!" Seinfeld!
 
The basis for the Christian-era Santa Claus is Bishop Nicholas of Smyrna (Izmir), in what is now Turkey. Nicholas lived in the 4th century A.D. He was very rich, generous, and loving toward children. Often he gave joy to poor children by throwing gifts in through their windows.

Was this a real person? Yes. Now, there might not be a big fat man in a red suit, who travels the world on Dec. 24th in a sleigh pulled by reindeer, to come down the chimney and bring toys to the good little boys and girls, but Bishop Nicholas of Smyrna did exist and was a real person. To argue that Santa Claus was merely made up by capitalist American opportunists to generate sales in the slow months of winter, well... that is an opinion, not a complete fact. Because you happen to think belief in God is like belief in Santa Claus, is an opinion as well, and you are entitled to it, just don't try to pass it off as a complete fact.

I'm not. As far as I am concerned there are no facts on this subject, just opinions, beliefs, and musings. Mine are musings. I don't know either way, and I don't claim to know. It might shock you, but I hope there is something after death. I just am not counting on it.
 
Well, I guess you have agreed that I and millions like me have no right of self-determination.

No, I said that dead people certainly have no more than you.

Methinks that this is a distinction without a difference. Prove me wrong!
 
Did you ever ask yourself, if this is so, why do we still have such a vibrant relationship between people and Gods?

God's 'use' to man is two-fold, firstly the 'god of the gaps' where god is used to explain the phenomenon that we don't have an easy answer for. In the past, most phenomenon was explained in this manner, from childbirth to fire. Today, the 'god of the gaps' is in severe retreat. Outside of fundamentalism, god has little left of this role, some religious types still cling to the possibility that a god originated it all, but their arguments are ridiculously weak and unsubstantiated. This role of god is dying a slow death.

The second role of god is 'god, the great comforter', where 'god' provides relief to the fears and insecurities of man. Death and the afterlife are covered by this, as is man's insecurity that there is no paternal figure watching over us and man's desire for absolutist morality to live by.

This role is stronger than the nearly dead 'god of the gaps', because humans are weak and cannot accept the cold reality of existence.

You state that man still has a vibrant relationship with 'god', but this is dying out. Religion has simply become radicalised, forced into a ridiculous fundamentalist position. Atheism is on the rise in the US and has long held sway in Europe, and in areas where religion is vibrant it is so because it plays to people's base instincts, prejudice and hatred of the 'other'. The only places where religion can be said to be vibrant are basket cases like the ME, Africa and Asia. Unsurprisingly, it is in these difficult places to live that 'god the great comforter' holds sway.

Religion is being threatened, and because of that it is becoming more radical, more volitile and thus is in a downward spiral. In a panic, the religious are attempting to reassert their influence, by placing fundamentalists in positions of power (the Bush regime for one) but the actions of the religious fundamentalists in power are driving more away from it.

In many ways, religion is lucky that atheism is not an organised ideology, if it were, it would be picking the last flesh from the corpse of god....As it stands it will be a steady erosion of the two legs of god, until it collapses in a heap of the dust it is made from...
 
When you die, if there is nothing after death, you will be non-existent for enternity. The human mind cannot comprehend this, and it is terrifying. Therefore, it invents a God, who runs some sort of paradise in the sky that nobody but dead people can see. And ifyou are very very good, (and I heard he keeps a list, but I do not know if he checks it twice) you will go there after you die, and spend eternity dancing around on clouds with all of your loved ones, including the ones you miss so badly because they died before you did.

It's sort of like Santa Clause for grown-ups.

This is 'god, the great comforter'. Existence is cold, uncaring and amoral. Humans are weak and cannot accept and overcome this fact, thus they invent 'superhumans' to which they attribute the actions of existence, to replace the cold, uncaring and amoral nature of relaity with a paternal figure to 'look after' us.

Religion is akin to adults being afraid of the dark.
 
Why do you suppose it is terrifying? It doesn't matter if you are dead, right? And why can't the human mind comprehend this? After all, our advancement and civilization, we still have an enormous number of humans, who seem to need spiritual belief and after-life. Science dictates there is a purpose for every human behavioral trait, so what is the explanation here?

Human weakness. An inability to come to terms with the cold nature of existence.

So humans create fantasies, such as a mythical place to go to when you die.
 
You are trying to apply human logic and standards to God. This doesn't wash, because God is infallible, humans are fallible.

This is the typical religious cop-out to avoid answering questions.

It is a formal logical fallacy called obscurum per obscurius, ie attempting to explain the obscure by the even more obscure.
 
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