Fidel Castro: Hero, Villain (or Heroic Villain)?

OrnotBitwise

OrnotBitwise

Watermelon
Anyone else have a lingering -- or grudging -- respect for Fidel? I do, I freely admit. This is NOT to say that his government is especially enlightened or that he's really built a worker's paradise in Cuba. It isn't and he hasn't. I do grant him a couple of points though.

One is that his regime is better than the Batista government was, at least for the majority of Cubans. That's on balance, of course, not on every single criterion. Many of the charges levelled at Castro -- especially the valid ones, about freedom of expression and the like -- could be made with just as much justice against the former regime.

Another is that he's one hell of a smart and feisty survivor. He's managed to keep his runty little nation afloat in a sea of much larger and more powerful predators. And he's done it while remaining an irritant.
 
He's not Mao, Stalin or Hitler.

He's not the boogie man that he was made out to be.

He certainly severly limited political freedom and was repressive to regime opponents. But, the numbers don't lie: cubans, on balance, are better off than under the Batista regime - at least in terms of social services and education.

One does hope that after Fidel, they will evolve more political freedom, though.
 
Cypress said:
He's not Mao, Stalin or Hitler.

He's not the boogie man that he was made out to be.

He certainly severly limited political freedom and was repressive to regime opponents. But, the numbers don't lie: cubans, on balance, are better off than under the Batista regime - at least in terms of social services and education.

One does hope that after Fidel, they will evolve more political freedom, though.
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That's what they hope for too. ;)
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Anyone else have a lingering -- or grudging -- respect for Fidel? I do, I freely admit. This is NOT to say that his government is especially enlightened or that he's really built a worker's paradise in Cuba. It isn't and he hasn't. I do grant him a couple of points though.

One is that his regime is better than the Batista government was, at least for the majority of Cubans. That's on balance, of course, not on every single criterion. Many of the charges levelled at Castro -- especially the valid ones, about freedom of expression and the like -- could be made with just as much justice against the former regime.

Another is that he's one hell of a smart and feisty survivor. He's managed to keep his runty little nation afloat in a sea of much larger and more powerful predators. And he's done it while remaining an irritant.
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Ornot, what is this? Some sort of "nuance"? WTF do you think you're doing here? You are either with us, or you are against us, ok?

There is no in between, no gray, none of this.

Now knock it off with these kind of posts before I have the Ministry of Love come to your home and kick your butt good for you.
 
Darla said:
Ornot, what is this? Some sort of "nuance"? WTF do you think you're doing here? You are either with us, or you are against us, ok?

There is no in between, no gray, none of this.

Now knock it off with these kind of posts before I have the Ministry of Love come to your home and kick your butt good for you.
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:whip:
 
I have no repsect for Castro. He betrayed the ideals he fought for. He certainly is no Che thats for sure.

Yes he is much better than Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. But a dictator who uses repression to control his people and stifle their human rights doesn't get much respect from me.

But then what should I expect from a watermelon? :)
 
There are some despots I admire a little bit like Robespierre, Ho Chi Minh, Lenin, and Lee Kuan Yew. Just in case you thought I immediately wrote off a leader just because they were a dictator.
 
This is such an enlightening thread ..I love it !!! ROFLMAO!!!
The American Lefts ongoing love affair with Castro ...

One of the many pleasures I have had in my 8 years of living in South Florida is the camaraderie I have established with the Cuban People.
There is no tolerance for dictators .. not on any level ... and he is the boogeyman Cypress ...why dont you take your ass down there and try living under such a regime ... what a friggin clown you are!

But I do agree with you ornot... he is one hell of a smart and feisty survivor.
And I also think it has been a mistake on our part cutting off Diplomatic relations ... it never worked and it hasnt amounted to much ....
 
klaatu said:
This is such an enlightening thread ..I love it !!! ROFLMAO!!!
The American Lefts ongoing love affair with Castro ...

One of the many pleasures I have had in my 8 years of living in South Florida is the camaraderie I have established with the Cuban People.
There is no tolerance for dictators .. not on any level ... and he is the boogeyman Cypress ...why dont you take your ass down there and try living under such a regime ... what a friggin clown you are!

But I do agree with you ornot... he is one hell of a smart and feisty survivor.
And I also think it has been a mistake on our part cutting off Diplomatic relations ... it never worked and it hasnt amounted to much ....
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Obviously you didn't read my thread.

I said that cubans are better off under Castro, than under Batista in terms of social welfare and education - but that, nonetheless, Castro presided over a repressive regime.
 
IHateGovernment said:
What do you think a Watermelon is Top?
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Is joke, comrade. Is green on outside, red on inside -- like moldy corpse of Lenin.

Just thought I'd save the free-market ideologues the effort. :tongout:
 
Not only did cypress mention it in his posts but I did in my initial post to this thread. I have to admit, though, I was kind of hoping to scare up a "zero tolerance for repression" post. So much fun to shoot down, they are.

:D

If we truly have zero tolerance for repressive regimes then we may as well kill the entire human race off right now. Repression is not some absolute value where the gubmint either does it or they don't. That's just Bush-esque cowboy thinking. Repression is a relative thing: some governments are worse than others but it all depends which aspects you think are most important.

I stand by my initial thesis. Most Cubans are today better off, on balance, than most Cubans were under Batista. That balance includes the fact that their freedom of political expression is indeed severely repressed.

Whether they're better off than they would have been had Batista not been overthrown is purely speculative, though the fate of other island nations in the region is not encouraging.

And the South Florida exile community is made up of drug dealers, drunks, criminals and losers. Neener, neener, neener!

:p
 
Cypress said:
Obviously you didn't read my thread.

I said that cubans are better off under Castro, than under Batista in terms of social welfare and education - but that, nonetheless, Castro presided over a repressive regime.
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Im not so sure about that .... at least with the Mob influence Cuba was a thriving Hot Spot under Batista ...sure he was an authoritarian crook ... but the Cubans took a wrong turn in the Revolution ....went from bad to bad.
Both are evil corrupt Dictators responsible for millions of deaths and destruction. Health Care and a second rate education does not replace freedom on any level.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
And the South Florida exile community is made up of drug dealers, drunks, criminals and losers. Neener, neener, neener!

:p
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You can do better than this ....
 
klaatu said:
You can do better than this ....
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Sure, but how much time would it take?

I think that making the generalization that the "Exile" community in Florida is primarily made up of heroic figures is every bit as ridiculous as asserting that they're mostly criminals and lunatics. Which, by the way, some Cubans believe.

Compare Cuba today with the Dominican Republic and Haiti and Trinidad. Cuba's doing pretty well, all things considered.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Sure, but how much time would it take?

I think that making the generalization that the "Exile" community in Florida is primarily made up of heroic figures is every bit as ridiculous as asserting that they're mostly criminals and lunatics. Which, by the way, some Cubans believe.

Compare Cuba today with the Dominican Republic and Haiti and Trinidad. Cuba's doing pretty well, all things considered.
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Im not sure I said the Cuban "Exile" community in Florida is primarily made up of heroic figures .. lol
But...as a hole.., they are a hard working productive community .... but like every other community ... they have their dregs ....

To say that Cuba is doing well by comparing them to other oppresed Island Nations would be like saying people on welfare in New York are doing well compared to those on in welfare Texas, so New York must be a better run State than Texas.
 
Castro is a heroic villain. He stood up to US sponsored brutal fascism and won, instigated many programmes that result in Cuba having a great education and health system but under a 50 year sick seige by the US became dictatorial.

Che is more of a hero to me... A flawed hero, but all heroes are....
 
Im not sure I said the Cuban "Exile" community in Florida is primarily made up of heroic figures

//

Classic example of US sponsored terrorism comes from the Cuban exiles in Florida.....

Not America's finest hour....
 
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