Finally someone speaks out

apple0154

apple0154

MEOW
Matthew Hoh, the senior U.S. civilian in Afghanistan's Zabul province, resigned in protest because he believes the American effort there is simply fueling the insurgency, the Washington Post reported Tuesday. Hoh, a former Marine Corps captain who also served in Iraq, wrote a four-page letter to the State Department's head of personnel in September, and his resignation became official last week. (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/1...signs-in-protest-of-afghanistan-war-policy/ )

Four Page Letter: "To put simply: I fail to see the value or worth in continued US causalities or expenditures of resources in support of the Afghan government in what is, truly, a 35-year old civil war." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/hp/ssi/wpc/ResignationLetter.pdf

Finally someone gets it!
 
apple0154 said:
Matthew Hoh, the senior U.S. civilian in Afghanistan's Zabul province, resigned in protest because he believes the American effort there is simply fueling the insurgency, the Washington Post reported Tuesday. Hoh, a former Marine Corps captain who also served in Iraq, wrote a four-page letter to the State Department's head of personnel in September, and his resignation became official last week. (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/1...signs-in-protest-of-afghanistan-war-policy/ )

Four Page Letter: "To put simply: I fail to see the value or worth in continued US causalities or expenditures of resources in support of the Afghan government in what is, truly, a 35-year old civil war." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/hp/ssi/wpc/ResignationLetter.pdf

Finally someone gets it!
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I expect McChrystal to also resign because there is absolutely no leadership in this administration.
 
Yes, lets just leave. Lets leave the Afghan girls to a life of third class personhood. A place where should she get raped and not have 4 witnesses that saw EXACTLY the same thing, they will stone her to death for fornication. Lets leave this place to the victimizers who don't so much practice their relgions but who instead use it as a weapon to justify all manner of crimes against the citizens of Afghanistan. We left this fucking mess 20 years ago. We helped kick the Soviets out and then left them to rot. In hindsight it would have been better to have left the communists in power because at least that way you didn't have these fucked up followers or a distorted Islam. In someways I think no religious freedom would be preferable to what the people of Afghanistan have to live with.
 
Socrtease said:
Yes, lets just leave. Lets leave the Afghan girls to a life of third class personhood. A place where should she get raped and not have 4 witnesses that saw EXACTLY the same thing, they will stone her to death for fornication. Lets leave this place to the victimizers who don't so much practice their relgions but who instead use it as a weapon to justify all manner of crimes against the citizens of Afghanistan. We left this fucking mess 20 years ago. We helped kick the Soviets out and then left them to rot. In hindsight it would have been better to have left the communists in power because at least that way you didn't have these fucked up followers or a distorted Islam. In someways I think no religious freedom would be preferable to what the people of Afghanistan have to live with.
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The point in Afghanistan is that there is NO religious freedoms under the Taliban. I agree that just leaving is as wrongheaded as just staying with no plan on how we stay i.e. what our specific goals are.
 
Socrtease said:
Yes, lets just leave. Lets leave the Afghan girls to a life of third class personhood. A place where should she get raped and not have 4 witnesses that saw EXACTLY the same thing, they will stone her to death for fornication. Lets leave this place to the victimizers who don't so much practice their relgions but who instead use it as a weapon to justify all manner of crimes against the citizens of Afghanistan. We left this fucking mess 20 years ago. We helped kick the Soviets out and then left them to rot. In hindsight it would have been better to have left the communists in power because at least that way you didn't have these fucked up followers or a distorted Islam. In someways I think no religious freedom would be preferable to what the people of Afghanistan have to live with.
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Blow it out your neocon hole.
 
Socrtease said:
Yes, lets just leave. Lets leave the Afghan girls to a life of third class personhood. A place where should she get raped and not have 4 witnesses that saw EXACTLY the same thing, they will stone her to death for fornication. Lets leave this place to the victimizers who don't so much practice their relgions but who instead use it as a weapon to justify all manner of crimes against the citizens of Afghanistan. We left this fucking mess 20 years ago. We helped kick the Soviets out and then left them to rot. In hindsight it would have been better to have left the communists in power because at least that way you didn't have these fucked up followers or a distorted Islam. In someways I think no religious freedom would be preferable to what the people of Afghanistan have to live with.
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Solution?
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Yea aint that the $64,000 question?
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We've got two options. Split like we did 20 years ago or stay and make sure it's fixed this time.

Certainly us debating how effed up it is isn't solving anything.

It's seems pretty apparent the job needs to be done and done right this time.
 
Socrtease said:
Yes, lets just leave. Lets leave the Afghan girls to a life of third class personhood. A place where should she get raped and not have 4 witnesses that saw EXACTLY the same thing, they will stone her to death for fornication. Lets leave this place to the victimizers who don't so much practice their relgions but who instead use it as a weapon to justify all manner of crimes against the citizens of Afghanistan. We left this fucking mess 20 years ago. We helped kick the Soviets out and then left them to rot. In hindsight it would have been better to have left the communists in power because at least that way you didn't have these fucked up followers or a distorted Islam. In someways I think no religious freedom would be preferable to what the people of Afghanistan have to live with.
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That, and any Afghan who supported the USA during our stint there will be tortured, have his family tortured and killed in front of him, then killed.

Meanwhile Obama's focusing on inflicting socialism in the homeland.
 
Yes, our efforts there may be fueling the insurgency, but obviously leaving the Afghan government to itself is going to lose it far, far more than what it gains. The Afghan government would fall within a year, and be replaced by the Taliban.
 
Socrtease said:
Yes, lets just leave. Lets leave the Afghan girls to a life of third class personhood. A place where should she get raped and not have 4 witnesses that saw EXACTLY the same thing, they will stone her to death for fornication. Lets leave this place to the victimizers who don't so much practice their relgions but who instead use it as a weapon to justify all manner of crimes against the citizens of Afghanistan. We left this fucking mess 20 years ago. We helped kick the Soviets out and then left them to rot. In hindsight it would have been better to have left the communists in power because at least that way you didn't have these fucked up followers or a distorted Islam. In someways I think no religious freedom would be preferable to what the people of Afghanistan have to live with.
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While helping the Afghans is certainly noble it does not come before helping the US citizen who is sleeping in a cardboard box under a bridge or lining up at a soup kitchen or walking around with an injury unable to afford proper medical attention and it certainly doesn't come at the cost of the lives of our young people.

Yes, we left the mess 20 years ago and we have to leave again. Hopefully, the next time some war monger suggests invading a country the population will storm the White House!

Have we learned anything? Do we have to watch graphic TV reports, after we leave, of civil war before we finally understand what has to be done should a war monger ever sit in the White House again?

Maybe that's what the voters need. Maybe watching atrocities, maybe understanding the consequences of interference, maybe the next time (God forbid) some war mongering politician stands up and talks war the people will run him/her out of town on a rail.

Maybe...no, not maybe.. we do need a dose of reality. Afghans killing Afghans. Iraqis killing Iraqis. Children burned and dismembered while the TV announcer tells us that is what resulted from our interference.

The letter reads, "Like the Soviets, we continue to secure and bolster a failing state, while encouraging a system of ideology and government unknown and unwanted by it's people."

That is the problem. The writer goes on to tell us we have savagely pitted one section of the population against the other. We are the problem.
 
usaloyal2theend said:
We've got two options. Split like we did 20 years ago or stay and make sure it's fixed this time.

Certainly us debating how effed up it is isn't solving anything.

It's seems pretty apparent the job needs to be done and done right this time.
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My problem with Obabma right now, he is just sitting on his ass or out campaigning, seemingly unable to make a decision.
 
Yeah, my solution is using special operations more and shock troops less. Special Forces are trained to assist the indigenous peoples in making their life better and at the same time training indigenous forces to combat the enemy. Special Forces made head way with the Montanards in Vietnam. The problem IS with heavy handed military action. It was one of the things that turned the population against the Soviets so quickly. The soviets used the HIND to attack villages and kill rebels as well as by standers. Special Forces is slower but IMO better suited to attain long term goals. Use the shock forces only in the open, Special Forces, Delta and SEAL's in urban environments using up close lethal force. US casualties should be smaller but the over all process will take longer. Otherwise blunt force trauma will turn the populace against us. Just as it did in Vietnam.
 
usaloyal2theend said:
We've got two options. Split like we did 20 years ago or stay and make sure it's fixed this time.

Certainly us debating how effed up it is isn't solving anything.

It's seems pretty apparent the job needs to be done and done right this time.
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I think your premis is sound, the question is, can we fix it? What are we trying to fix? If were trying to end a 30+ year civil war, I don't think we can fix that. If we can't fix that, we can't end the factions that are resonsible for making Afghanistan a failed state. It was Afghanistan's and it's Taliban lead governments failure to run the state which made them a national security threat and a clear and present danger to the USA......ring around the rosie!
 
Socrtease said:
Yeah, my solution is using special operations more and shock troops less. Special Forces are trained to assist the indigenous peoples in making their life better and at the same time training indigenous forces to combat the enemy. Special Forces made head way with the Montanards in Vietnam. The problem IS with heavy handed military action. It was one of the things that turned the population against the Soviets so quickly. The soviets used the HIND to attack villages and kill rebels as well as by standers. Special Forces is slower but IMO better suited to attain long term goals. Use the shock forces only in the open, Special Forces, Delta and SEAL's in urban environments using up close lethal force. US casualties should be smaller but the over all process will take longer. Otherwise blunt force trauma will turn the populace against us. Just as it did in Vietnam.
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That's not a solution. It treats the symptom and not the problem. How can we build a secure nation state in Afghanistan with the factions there ready to tear out each others throats? First some sort of national reconciliation must occur and then the nations infrastructure must be rebuilt. Only then can we begin. Problem is, can the US do it on it's own? I don't think so. That's a big part of the problem left over from the Bush legacy. How can we now build an international coalition to address this problem of failed states like Afghanistan, Sudan and Somalia?

I think the first step towards a solution is for us to realize that this is not a problem American can fix alone.
 
Watermark said:
Yes, our efforts there may be fueling the insurgency, but obviously leaving the Afghan government to itself is going to lose it far, far more than what it gains. The Afghan government would fall within a year, and be replaced by the Taliban.
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this is stupid....the taliban thought the "rebels" were insurgents....now it is the taliban who are insurgents
 
Socrtease said:
Yeah, my solution is using special operations more and shock troops less. Special Forces are trained to assist the indigenous peoples in making their life better and at the same time training indigenous forces to combat the enemy. Special Forces made head way with the Montanards in Vietnam. The problem IS with heavy handed military action. It was one of the things that turned the population against the Soviets so quickly. The soviets used the HIND to attack villages and kill rebels as well as by standers. Special Forces is slower but IMO better suited to attain long term goals. Use the shock forces only in the open, Special Forces, Delta and SEAL's in urban environments using up close lethal force. US casualties should be smaller but the over all process will take longer. Otherwise blunt force trauma will turn the populace against us. Just as it did in Vietnam.
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Can somebody please tell me what we've been doing there since we got there 8 years ago and the plan we had to "win" until January of this year?
It was not the US that buried the USSR, it was Afghanistan and its millenium long history of tribalism. There is no mission that can overcome that tradition. It destroyed the Soviets, it can destroy us. Neither nation-building nor US exceptionalism is going to win a war without purpose. How long is a "long term goal"?
What history have I been missing regarding the US "leaving" there 20 years ago? Whether we aided the Afghans or not, it wasn't the US that "won".
Which Muslim country guilty of mistreating its women is next? Shall we start with Saudi Arabia, and after that?????
I believe the population already holds no great love for the US.
 
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Mott the Hoople said:
I think your premis is sound, the question is, can we fix it? What are we trying to fix? If were trying to end a 30+ year civil war, I don't think we can fix that. If we can't fix that, we can't end the factions that are resonsible for making Afghanistan a failed state. It was Afghanistan's and it's Taliban lead governments failure to run the state which made them a national security threat and a clear and present danger to the USA......ring around the rosie!
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I agree with socrtease. I think we need to send in Special Forces, get the job done the best we can and get the hell out.

I keep hearing they are hiding out in the Pushtan region and supposedly it is so hellatious that it is nigh on impossible to break through.

I don't know, but if the premise is that we keep leaving it a mess, then do one final job to the best of our ability and then let it run whatever course it needs to. If that means letting them blow themselves to smithereens, well so be it.
 
Back during the Iraq War the liberals would constantly bash Bush for taking troops out of Afghanistan, and scream and cry over every US soldier death. Now that Obama's basically doing nothing in Afghanistan and letting our troops die by attrition, the liberals are silent.
 
usaloyal2theend said:
I don't know, but if the premise is that we keep leaving it a mess, then do one final job to the best of our ability and then let it run whatever course it needs to. If that means letting them blow themselves to smithereens, well so be it.
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You mean letting the Taliban blast the people to smithereens? I'm guessing you just lump all the brownies into one collective group.
 
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