Bfgrn
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But you, on the other hand are citing FACTS...
Then it is you, not Jack Kennedy that's psychic...izvineetye
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But you, on the other hand are citing FACTS...
Then it is you, not Jack Kennedy that's psychic...izvineetye
Yes, we know what the reaction was after a failed incursion into Cuba. Hence it is a fact, not psychic vision.
Bfgrn
New member
And, we know there was never a nuclear winter during the Kennedy administration
As they say: never let a crisis go to waste...
The Cuban Missile Crisis became the launching point for a personal dialogue between Kennedy and Khrushchev...
Kennedy often said he wanted his epitaph to be "He kept the peace." Even Khrushchev and Castro, Kennedy's toughest foreign adversaries, came to appreciate J.F.K.'s commitment to that goal. The roly-poly Soviet leader, clowning and growling, had thrown the young President off his game when they met at the Vienna summit in 1961. But after weathering storms like the Cuban missile crisis, the two leaders had settled into a mutually respectful quest for détente.
When Khrushchev got the news from Dallas in November 1963, he broke down and sobbed in the Kremlin, unable to perform his duties for days.
Despite his youth, Kennedy was a "real statesman," Khrushchev later wrote in his memoir, after he was pushed from power less than a year following J.F.K.'s death. If Kennedy had lived, he wrote, the two men could have brought peace to the world.
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1635958_1635999_1634954-6,00.html
None of this changes that the crisis would never have existed without Kennedy's poor judgment, and all of it rests on the assumption that no dialog would exist without this crisis. I prefer a crisis that isn't created by the President himself to one that is self-created because of poor planning.
I think that it says far more positive about Kruschev than Kennedy, who had already proven his poor judgment.
Bfgrn
New member
WOW, you need it BOTH ways to make your argument!
NO takeover of Berlin if we invade Cuba in '61 AND open dialogue with Khrushchev without the Missile Crisis...
Well, JFK had to work around all you right wing know it all nut cases back then too, like Curtis LeMay, who strongly believed in launching a pre-emptive nuclear attack against Russia before they caught up to us in world ending weapons...
Did you EVER contemplate WHY Eisenhower chose his farewell address to warn us about the military/industrial complex?
Maybe you should do some research on the Dulles brothers and United Fruit Company. It might give you some insight into why one of the questions Kennedy asked is why America is so hated in their own hemisphere.
Then move on to Operation 40 and the genesis of the team of assassins that took out a head of state...OURS...
I'm skeptical of know it all's when it comes to mutual speculation...
I am also skeptical of "know it alls" when it comes to mutual speculation.
I think a different crisis would have come about that wasn't imposed by our own "leader's" ineptitude. Hence my statement on how I prefer that our leaders use crises that they do not themselves create desperately trying to fix their near-fatal misdirection. As far as Kennedy questioning why we were so hated, that has yet to enter the conversation, using it to buttress the idea that the USSR preferred mutual destruction to losing Cuba is a bit much.
Bfgrn
New member
Don't you think it's a bit much to expect the Soviet Union to just cower in Cuba and not act over Berlin? They had around a 10 to 1 advantage there and it is in their hemisphere...
The paradox of that scenario was discussed by McNamara... IF Russia had decided to take West Berlin, it would have been America, not Russia, or any "other" evil empire that would have faced the necessity to use nukes...or LOOSE...
Think about it...
When reporters pressed Eisenhower for a statement on Nixon's accomplishments, the president replied: "If you give me a week, I might think of one."
Which doesn't suggest why remarking on how much Kennedy wondered about the Americas hating us makes any more sense to this argument. Its an attempt to flood information, valid or not, on the topic to claim a false and perfect expertise on the subject. Especially when used to buttress the argument that Russia would prefer mutual destruction to losing Cuba. You just keep stating things, regardless of their salience to the topic at hand.
Bfgrn
New member
What? Cuba's in our hemisphere the last time I checked. Yet Cuba was forced to turn to the Soviet Union for support because of America's right wing nuts big red scare that f*cked up US foreign policy for decades? Do you really think Cuba was a great place for anyone but the Mafia and US corporations under Fulgencio Batista?
"Russia would prefer mutual destruction to losing Cuba"
No SANE person would use such a foolish argument...?
Would YOU prefer JFK invaded Cuba and not BE HERE?
That is a new definition of winning...
Bfgrn
New member
Damocles...
President Kennedy even mentioned you by name...
“Today, every inhabitant of this planet must contemplate the day when this planet may no longer be habitable. Every man, woman and child lives under a nuclear sword of Damocles, hanging by the slenderest of threads, capable of being cut at any moment by accident, or miscalculation, or by madness. The weapons of war must be abolished before they abolish us.”
President John F. Kennedy
Address before the General Assembly of the United Nations on September 25, 1961
President Kennedy even mentioned you by name...
“Today, every inhabitant of this planet must contemplate the day when this planet may no longer be habitable. Every man, woman and child lives under a nuclear sword of Damocles, hanging by the slenderest of threads, capable of being cut at any moment by accident, or miscalculation, or by madness. The weapons of war must be abolished before they abolish us.”
President John F. Kennedy
Address before the General Assembly of the United Nations on September 25, 1961
I asked a question about mutual destruction between the USSR and the US, you offered a book for me to read and a statement on how Kennedy wondered why were were so hated in our own hemisphere....
Yes, "What?" indeed.
Now you offer a silly straw man. Where have I suggested he should even have made the small incursion he did? I said he was a fool for it and I prefer my Presidents wiser than that. You then suggested that Kruschev would never have spoken to Kennedy had he not been a fool. Okay, if you want to believe that....
You then "buttressed" that position with something about how I should read a book on how Kennedy wondered why the Americas hated us so much while using an ad hom attack.
Bfgrn
New member
This conversation is going off the tracks...
The invasion by Cuban exiles didn't have ANY chance of success at all, even with US air support. It would have required a full US invasion.
A US invasion of Cuba would have led to a Soviet takeover of West Berlin and a probable war with Russia...
It could have led to a nuclear war and the END of civilization.
Kennedy screwed up. He should have followed his instincts. His mistake was trusting people unworthy of trust...the Joint Chiefs of Staff and an agency that lied to him and undermined his authority...
He never made the same mistake again... it turned out to be a BLESSING for you, me and every American citizen...
Compare that to your president that doesn't make mistakes...it would HAVE to be God OR a George W...an ideologue that NEVER admits mistakes...and never even questions his decisions REGARDLESS of the consequences...Hitler shared the same character markers
I'll take JFK. A pragmatist that's HUMAN and keenly intelligent...a man that learns from his mistakes and uses that knowledge to make future decisions.
Empathy is a liberal trait...it's portrayed by the right as a bleeding heart. But JFK used empathy during the Missile Crisis...he was able to put himself in Khrushchev's shoes. He understood the pressures Khrushchev faced from his own Joint Chiefs and warmongers...he understood that when you push someone against a wall, they have only ONE choice. He gave Khrushchev some maneuvering room and a way to save face...
It was brilliant...
Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.
William E. Gladstone
I prefer the mistakes to be a little less close to the actual end of our civilization. And yes, even if it was because he "listened" to somebody else, it is his mistake. Period.
You think it is "magical" because of empathy. All people can feel empathy, even those who aren't liberal, it is silly to suggest it is some magical liberal experience that I'll never participate in, nor ever have the capacity to understand. In my religion we use empathy consistently in the practice of Compassion.
With that suggestion you have gone into mythical territory where liberals are magical creatures living in a world of rainbows and butterflies while conservatives are an entirely different species altogether without the capacity of even using the magical ingredients in the "empathy" spell cast upon your Great Leader at a time of Crisis because they can't even see the Color Empathy that is only visible by the species of Liberal....
You really should write that book. I'd even read it, it sounds like my kind of book.
But until you can maintain the capacity to understand the reality of the humanity of the other half of the nation, you aren't really arguing, you're projecting what you want to see onto another group rather than what is.
As for Bush, I've spent the last 6 years, since the advent of the war, talking about his foolishness. One thing I'll say, at least his hasn't brought the US to the brink of total annihilation.
cancel2 2022
Canceled
I would have thought that this would be enough to convince doubters of the seriousness of the Cuban Missile Crisis. (Source)
During the Cuban Missile Crisis, the US Navy learned the wrong lesson. They thought they "won" by imposing an illegal blockade on Cuba. They did not realize until decades later that not only did the Soviet Union have tactical nuclear anti-ship missiles on the ground in Cuba, but also nuclear torpedoes on Soviet submarines in Cuban water. This book does not include, but I recall it from another work, the fact that a Soviet submarine commander directly disobeyed an order to fire a torpedo at a US vessel in his undersea sights, and it was this one human decision that allowed the crisis to begin winding down.
It was the Cuban Missile Crisis that earned the Soviet Navy virtually unlimited funding and approval of very aggressive programs to create a counter-Navy to the US Navy. I am struck over all of my reading (not just the books I have reviewed at Amazon, but especially those) by how often the US as a rogue nation, the US military as a unilateral force, and the US Intelligence Community as a completely unaccountable and unsupervised covert force, have literally created what we all call "blowback." We, the USA, created the conditions of confrontation and instability all over the world, most recently with the Bush-Cheney regime's misbehavior and idiotic foreign non-policies (we love 42 of the 44 dictators) taking us from 75 failed states in 2005 to 177 failed states in 2007--states that produce the ten high-level threats to humanity that do not recognize borders.
During the Cuban Missile Crisis, the US Navy learned the wrong lesson. They thought they "won" by imposing an illegal blockade on Cuba. They did not realize until decades later that not only did the Soviet Union have tactical nuclear anti-ship missiles on the ground in Cuba, but also nuclear torpedoes on Soviet submarines in Cuban water. This book does not include, but I recall it from another work, the fact that a Soviet submarine commander directly disobeyed an order to fire a torpedo at a US vessel in his undersea sights, and it was this one human decision that allowed the crisis to begin winding down.
It was the Cuban Missile Crisis that earned the Soviet Navy virtually unlimited funding and approval of very aggressive programs to create a counter-Navy to the US Navy. I am struck over all of my reading (not just the books I have reviewed at Amazon, but especially those) by how often the US as a rogue nation, the US military as a unilateral force, and the US Intelligence Community as a completely unaccountable and unsupervised covert force, have literally created what we all call "blowback." We, the USA, created the conditions of confrontation and instability all over the world, most recently with the Bush-Cheney regime's misbehavior and idiotic foreign non-policies (we love 42 of the 44 dictators) taking us from 75 failed states in 2005 to 177 failed states in 2007--states that produce the ten high-level threats to humanity that do not recognize borders.
Bfgrn
New member
Hi Tom, John Kennedy was ahead of his time... here's an article you will enjoy...
Warrior For Peace: The Lessons of J.F.K.
By David Talbot
John F. Kennedy's loyal White House aides, Kenneth O'Donnell and Dave Powers, titled their 1972 J.F.K. memoir Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye—despite the fact that they had served him since his days as a scrawny young congressional candidate in Boston. So it's no surprise that Americans are still trying to figure out nearly half a century after his abbreviated presidency who Jack Kennedy really was. Was he a cold war hawk, as much of the history establishment, Washington pundit class and presidential hopefuls of both parties—eager to lay claim to his mantle of muscular leadership—have insisted over the years? Or was he a man ahead of his time, a peace-minded visionary trying to untie the nuclear knot that held hostage the U.S. and the Soviet Union—and the rest of the world?
As the U.S. once again finds itself in an endless war—this time against terror, or perhaps against fear itself—the question of Kennedy's true legacy seems particularly loaded. What is the best way for America to navigate through a world where its enemies seem everywhere and nowhere at the same time? What can we learn from the way Kennedy was trying to redefine the U.S. role in the world and to invite Americans to be part of that change? Who was the real John Fitzgerald Kennedy?
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1635958_1635999_1634954,00.html
Bfgrn
New member
I have a very high opinion of JFK... one that you don't share. I respect your opinion and I agree it was his mistake...and so did HE...
Empathy was only one of the character traits he possessed. It is not exclusive to liberals, but as Paul Craig Roberts, the father of Reaganomics said: "Have you ever heard of a bleeding heart Republican?"
Historians that studied the Cuban Missile Crisis and listened to every minute of the recordings of EXCOMM agree that in a room full of the best and brightest, it was JFK that consistently stood out...
I admire his leadership, his vision and his humanity...but I miss his wit and his humor...
"I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered at the White House - with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."
President John F. Kennedy (Speaking at a White House dinner for Nobel Prize winners, 1962)