how 'reasonable restrictions' gets used against you

[apple0154]

No, I am referring to your previous suggestion that there should be a guaranteed perpetual wage for those who aren't working. I've been very consistent, I quoted that post, asked questions about it, pointed out where it failed, and so far you have (apparently purposefully) avoided answering the questions and pretend to "misunderstand"...

Yes, there should be a guaranteed wage, like welfare only more adequate. There should also be medical evaluations and councelling. There should be educational evaluations and assistance.

The point being healthy, happy people want to be independent and have a sense of pride. We are capable of assisting individuals and can afford to do so. Individuals would benefit as well as society, in general. Instead, we wait until people commit a crime, lock them up, them feed them three meals a day and offer free education and medical care. Can't people see there's something terribly wrong with our system?

 

[SmarterthanYou]

Yes, there should be a guaranteed wage, like welfare only more adequate. There should also be medical evaluations and councelling. There should be educational evaluations and assistance.

The point being healthy, happy people want to be independent and have a sense of pride. We are capable of assisting individuals and can afford to do so. Individuals would benefit as well as society, in general. Instead, we wait until people commit a crime, lock them up, them feed them three meals a day and offer free education and medical care. Can't people see there's something terribly wrong with our system?

we see you have a seriously lacking sense of human nature.

 

[Damocles]

Yes, there should be a guaranteed wage, like welfare only more adequate. There should also be medical evaluations and councelling. There should be educational evaluations and assistance.

The point being healthy, happy people want to be independent and have a sense of pride. We are capable of assisting individuals and can afford to do so. Individuals would benefit as well as society, in general. Instead, we wait until people commit a crime, lock them up, them feed them three meals a day and offer free education and medical care. Can't people see there's something terribly wrong with our system?

This is nonsense. Healthy people can be happy with less than you apparently want. It is apparent you cannot see past failures of such a model. It should be limited in time. I agree we should train people for work, I am a firm believer in "teach to fish", because we aren't going to carry them forever. The only people who should be carried are those who are incapable, otherwise abuse will happen as we have seen in the past.

 

[apple0154]

we see you have a seriously lacking sense of human nature.

In what way?

 

[apple0154]

This is nonsense. Healthy people can be happy with less than you apparently want. It is apparent you cannot see past failures of such a model. It should be limited in time. I agree we should train people for work, I am a firm believer in "teach to fish", because we aren't going to carry them forever. The only people who should be carried are those who are incapable, otherwise abuse will happen as we have seen in the past.

People are happy when they're suffering? As for teaching to fish most jurisdictions won't even allow a person to increase their education (attend classes) when unemployed.

As for past models being failures there's never been a past model. People were and still are prohibited from increasing their education while collecting unemployment. Are those on welfare counselled on jobs and given the opportunity to increase their skills? Or is the "help", a financial pittance, grudgingly given along with references to people being lazy and abusing the system. Is the goal to help the individual or look for ways to disqualify them?

If nothing is done other than throw a few dollars their way what do we expect? What is going to change? People get stuck on welfare not because they are abusing the system. It's because no help is offered. If we don't help them change the reason they ended up there (lack of skills, emotional problems, addictions, etc.) how can we expect their situation to change?

 

[SmarterthanYou]

In what way?

Because THIS

The point being healthy, happy people want to be independent and have a sense of pride.

is not always the case. happy healthy people can also be quite comfortable sitting on the couch playing with a yo-yo making it look like they are looking for a job but not really wanting one because they know there's no way they'll lose anything because of a guaranteed income. too many of them, in fact.

 

[apple0154]

Because THIS is not always the case. happy healthy people can also be quite comfortable sitting on the couch playing with a yo-yo making it look like they are looking for a job but not really wanting one because they know there's no way they'll lose anything because of a guaranteed income. too many of them, in fact.

If courses to upgrade skills were mandatory they wouldn't be sititng on their couch. Getting up every morning. Getting involved in life. Associating with other "classmates". Having a full medical workup to ensure they're not ill.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

If courses to upgrade skills were mandatory they wouldn't be sititng on their couch. Getting up every morning. Getting involved in life. Associating with other "classmates". Having a full medical workup to ensure they're not ill.

do you know how many professional students exist today? I know people that would love to do nothing but go to class and get paid for it. your guaranteed income solution is ludicrous at best, dangerous at worst.

 

[apple0154]

do you know how many professional students exist today? I know people that would love to do nothing but go to class and get paid for it. your guaranteed income solution is ludicrous at best, dangerous at worst.

There can be follow-up to see if people apply for jobs. If it's shown an individual has applied for a number of jobs without being successful follow-up could include contacting the companies and asking if there was any particular reason the person wasn't hired. The point being change the focus from assuming a person does not want a job to assuming they do unless something can be shown to back up the former assumption.

It's always the same worn out excuse people abuse the system when the problem is help is lacking. There's more to helping an unemployed individual than just giving them money. Courses and counselling should be offered. In short; Help. That's supposed to be the whole purpose behind any program. Instead of continually paying someone to stay home or go to school have them do tests to determine their skill level. Find out what training they require and provide it. It's better to spend a few dollars extra and get the person qualified instead of just paying them and bitching about abuse.

Then there's the waiting period for benefits to start. Say, a two week waiting period. Many people live paycheck to paycheck so why start out with the person having financial difficulties? Someone hounding them for the rent or late on utility bills. Is the goal to help the person or punish them? It's invariably the latter.