Huckabee's fair tax

[FUCK THE POLICE]

A flat tax with a standard deduction is NOT regressive... it is progressive. It is the most progressive option available. A consumption tax is REGRESSIVE unless you somehow twist it to include capital gains and dividend income as "consumption". The current system is obviously regressive due to all the loopholes and deductions allowed. Which is why we have situations where CEOs have lower effective tax rates than many of their employees.

The fair tax is only progressive on consumption, true. But just about everything saved up has to be, at one point, consumed. Just wait until they give out the money to their heirs...

I didn't say that the flat tax is regressive, either. I've actually just about never heard anyone proprose a "true" flat tax, which still wouldn't be progressive. Your system is like a progressive tax with two brackets, it just seems like you're claiming it does a LOT.

How many loopholes for the rich can their be? Why can't we just get rid of them?

Oh because that ensnares the middle class.

Let's just institute your plan, keep the top bracket at about 30%, and raise the top brack to about 1 million. Then set all the brackets to CoL so that we never have to worry about this again.



Still, I like the fair tax.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

What are your thoughts on Friedman's negative income tax, Superfreak? He intended not only as a way to redo the tax system, but as a way to replace most of the welfare state with one simply check.

That's actually why I liked the fair tax. It seems to me to be something of a negative consumption tax, although it keeps the welfare state in place and the rebates aren't nearly as large.

 

[Annie]

That is the same problem I have with the fair tax. But the flat tax is progressive. (when you use a standard deduction)

A person making $30k pays an effective rate of 0%.

A person making $50k pays an effective rate of 8%.

A person making $100k pays an effective rate of 14%.

A person making $200k pays en effective rate of 17%.

A person making $1mm pays an effective rate of 19.4%

Everyone has the same deduction and takes it. Which causes the effective tax rate to increase the more you make.

I'm going to look into this more.

 

[Socrtease]

Ok, fair assessment of your read, appreciated. Here's what I see from flat/fair more or less, depending on the proponent. Everyone would pay the same percentage, some making a deviation below a certain point. Some make some deductions, other no. I believe it's the fair tax that includes a sales tax.

In any case, to my way of thinking both are regressive, as all of my purchases are necessities. When it comes to sales tax in the great state of Illinois, the state, city, county and sometimes township get in on it. I live in DuPage, which has a substantially lower tax than Cook, (Chicago).

Most of my neighbors have much higher incomes, 3-10 times my income. That the roast we buy might have all bought for Christmas dinner is taxed exactly the same, is by my definition, (the normal definition), regressive.

I'll stop here, see what others have to say.

If we had a federal sales or consumption tax, I believe you would have to exclude food and medicine and I would say even kids clothes. Evrything else from DVD's to Yachts would be taxed. The germans have an added value tax of 19% on top of other taxes that they pay. I am not sure how well an added value tax or consumption tax would play in the US. I think that people would not trade up cars every 3 to 5 years and other big ticket items would be purchased less frequently

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

If we had a federal sales or consumption tax, I believe you would have to exclude food and medicine and I would say even kids clothes. Evrything else from DVD's to Yachts would be taxed. The germans have an added value tax of 19% on top of other taxes that they pay. I am not sure how well an added value tax or consumption tax would play in the US. I think that people would not trade up cars every 3 to 5 years and other big ticket items would be purchased less frequently

That's not true. Under the current system they already have less income to spend on those items anyway. The only practical difference between them is that savings aren't taxed until spent. Income isn't taxed until the point of realization. All savings will eventually be spent. The rich may usually have more savings at any one point, but those savings are always spent. That point is therefore negated. Capital gains are, of course, taxed. But only whenever they are realized and spent. Also, profits from drugs and other black markets are taxed indirectly. The tax is also much more up front and apparent.

I would prefer a Value added tax to a national sales tax, though. It's not as easy for companies to dodge. Under the sales tax companies would have a large incentive to not report the sale and split the profit with the consumer. Under a VAT, that's not as big a deal, and all points in the production line are taxed equally.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I'm going to look into this more.

That is all I can ask. Obvisously I am biased towards the flat tax, but it is mainly because when compared to the current system it is far simpler and it is truly fair. Everyone is treated the same, yet due to the standard deduction it still protects the low income and helps the lower middle income compared to the current system.

 

[Damocles]

That is all I can ask. Obvisously I am biased towards the flat tax, but it is mainly because when compared to the current system it is far simpler and it is truly fair. Everyone is treated the same, yet due to the standard deduction it still protects the low income and helps the lower middle income compared to the current system.

The one reason I prefer a progressive consumption tax is because even this system still has the government keeping tabs on all your earnings.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

If we had a federal sales or consumption tax, I believe you would have to exclude food and medicine and I would say even kids clothes. Evrything else from DVD's to Yachts would be taxed. The germans have an added value tax of 19% on top of other taxes that they pay. I am not sure how well an added value tax or consumption tax would play in the US. I think that people would not trade up cars every 3 to 5 years and other big ticket items would be purchased less frequently

This is another thing I do not like about the fair tax. How do you decide what to include and what not to? I think it would simply become a situation where you end up with lobbyists bribing politicians to include "their" products on the no tax list. Some have suggested rebate checks to the poor to compensate rather than having a list, but I still think that makes it more complex than the flat tax with standard deduction.

 

[Damocles]

This is another thing I do not like about the fair tax. How do you decide what to include and what not to? I think it would simply become a situation where you end up with lobbyists bribing politicians to include "their" products on the no tax list. Some have suggested rebate checks to the poor to compensate rather than having a list, but I still think that makes it more complex than the flat tax with standard deduction.

Simply make it so that the government simply keeps tabs only on those who make too little to pay the tax and give them exemption cards to use while making purchases. Use strict laws to negate gray market purchasing for others in an attempt to get around a consumption tax.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I think your mistaken, Damo.

Any progressive consumption tax would most definitely need to keep track of income on some level in order to give back the rebates that make the tax progressive.

 

[Damocles]

I think your mistaken, Damo.

Any progressive consumption tax would most definitely need to keep track of income on some level in order to give back the rebates that make the tax progressive.

Actually, only if you want the rebate would you need to send in the information. Hence the need would be smaller as only those seeking the rebate would need to file. I didn't say it wouldn't be there at all, just that there would be no need to keep track of everybody, only those who will seek their rebate or their exemption card...

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

The one reason I prefer a progressive consumption tax is because even this system still has the government keeping tabs on all your earnings.

A valid point. As I mentioned earlier, it really depends on how the two systems are proposed and implemented. Somehow I think the politicians would find a way to muck up the fair tax a lot easier than the flat tax with standard deduction.

I sent my version of the flat tax to Allard and Salazar. I just can't wait to hear their responses. /sarcasm off

 

[theMAJORITY]

Now that Huckabee and Thompson.. Republicans... have proposed a consumption tax (traditionally a very liberal idea.. look at Europe)...

Are all the dems on this board now anti consumption tax?

I personally don't like the fair tax. It is a manditory replacement tax to replace a income tax that is not manditory (but inforced anyway). It also is not Huckabees idea. A libertarian radio talk show host named Neil Boortz wrote the book. May be Huckabee should mention the name of the person who really came up with the tax plan---if he was honest enough.

I did not read the book, but I saw and heard a few proponents talk about it. They claim that coporations don't really pay any taxes because they roll the tax burdon onto their products for consumers to take care of with the retail price. If the fair tax hindges on that fact at all, I don't see it working, because i don't see coporations lowering the cost of their products as the tax burdon is lifted from them. That means it will not be 23% for a product--it will most likely cost us double as coporate profits go up again. Same with health care---employeers will not pay their employees 15% more if health care is lifted off their shoulders--it will go striaght into the profits of the company--while the consumer gets taxed more---and homes go up for forclosure at a higher rate than today.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Boortz didn't come up with the fair tax.

 

[theMAJORITY]

Boortz didn't come up with the fair tax.

Who did? I might be wrong on that---but I think he wrote a book about it. I know he supports the heck out of it.