Hypothetical Abortion Scenario

BRUTALITOPS

on indefiniate mod break
Contributor
Ok first off, in the interest of full disclosure so you don't think I am being a facetious asshole, I will remind everyone I am pro-choice for the most part and only against late term third trimester partial birth abortions. Other than that I say have at it, lets make baby stew. yum yum.

Lets say that upon the moment of conception, there is no development period for the fetus. Everything just goes *poof* and there is a fully formed, developed, and functioning baby inside the womb, as if it was 9 months old. HOWEVER, our technology isn't at the point where we are able to remove the baby from the mother at all, and thus the baby still would have to be carried for 9 months and the woman still would have to give birth.

We are also assuming for the sake of this hypothetical scenario that the baby wont develop any further, and will remain the same until the woman gives birth to it.

Do we still allow abortion in all scenarios if the mother chooses to?
 
We are also assuming for the sake of this hypothetical scenario that the baby wont develop any further, and will remain the same until the woman gives birth to it.

Do we still allow abortion in all scenarios if the mother chooses to?

No.

Legally speaking, I am pro-choice for early first-trimester abortions. But in a hypothetical situation such as that, abortion at any stage would be unacceptable. The whole premise of my objection to abortion beyond the 8th week is that the nervous system of the fetus is developed to the point that they are capable of experiencing pain.
 
Baby stew? does that have carrots? what is the base? what do I serve with it? Or perhaps it is only the first course of a multi course meal? What does one serve after the soup course that compliments the baby soup? God and then there is the whole wine issue. White or Red? You have screwed my dinner plans to hell and gone.
 
First of all, why do you oppose intact dilaction and extraction (the so called partial birth abortion)? It's a life saveing procedure used to saves womens lives. The right wing advocates who oppose it are #1, ignorant on the topic, and #2, should obtain a license to practice medicine before they kill people. Intact D&X is used almost exclusively in the case of a fetus with acute hydrocephalus. Acute hydrocephalus is a condition which is terminal to the fetus and if allowed to continue to term is usually fatal to the mother during delivery. If you outlaw intact D&X (and other late term abortion procedures) you might as well point a gun to the woman's head and shoot her. Those who oppose this medical procedure are almost alway political dupes and rubes who haven't taken the time to inform themselves on this issue properly. In other words though no medical procedure is 100% contraindicated the best known procedure for managing acute hydrocephalus is intact D&X. This is a great example of why lay people shouldn't play doctor.

Next as for your hypothetical. The reason why abortion is such a controversial issue is that it represents two extremes that are, philosophically, morally objectionable.

Abrortion for any reason what so ever is the first extreme. Let's use a better hypothetical which is close to yours. A woman is 8 months pregnant and wins a free vacation to Europe. She decides she doesn't want to tour Europe loaded down with a baby and so has an abortion. This is both morally objectionable and morally inpermissable.

The opposite extreme is abortion for no reason what so ever. Let's say, not so hypothetically that a woman who is 8 months pregnant is told her fetus has acute hydrocephalus which has a 100% mortality rate. That if she has the baby with this terminal condition her odds are 100% that she will die too. Not only would it be morally objectionable to not permit her to have an abortion (intact D&X?) but it would be morally obligatory for her to have one.

What we debate is the grey moral areas in between.
 
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Curious that most debates fail to consider the person/family that has to raise the child and the fact everyone prevents life from forming by one means or another.

"Judith Thompson provided one of the most striking and effective thought experiments in the moral realm. Her example is aimed at a popular anti-abortion argument that goes something like this: The fetus is an innocent person with a right to life. Abortion results in the death of a fetus. Therefore, abortion is morally wrong. In her thought experiment we are asked to imagine a famous violinist falling into a coma. The society of music lovers determines from medical records that you and you alone can save the violinist's life by being hooked up to him for nine months. The music lovers break into your home while you are asleep and hook the unconscious (and unknowing, hence innocent) violinist to you. You may want to unhook him, but you are then faced with this argument put forward by the music lovers: The violinist is an innocent person with a right to life. Unhooking him will result in his death. Therefore, unhooking him is morally wrong."

http://www.bostonreview.net/BR20.3/thomson.html
 
I would not unhook him. Too bad I wouldn't get the fun part of getting hooked up before I got hooked up.
 
When the child has just gotten a girl preggers (or if a girl gotten preggers) and wrecked your car while DUI and will not work. That is the time for a post term abortion.
 
Curious that most debates fail to consider the person/family that has to raise the child and the fact everyone prevents life from forming by one means or another.

"Judith Thompson provided one of the most striking and effective thought experiments in the moral realm. Her example is aimed at a popular anti-abortion argument that goes something like this: The fetus is an innocent person with a right to life. Abortion results in the death of a fetus. Therefore, abortion is morally wrong. In her thought experiment we are asked to imagine a famous violinist falling into a coma. The society of music lovers determines from medical records that you and you alone can save the violinist's life by being hooked up to him for nine months. The music lovers break into your home while you are asleep and hook the unconscious (and unknowing, hence innocent) violinist to you. You may want to unhook him, but you are then faced with this argument put forward by the music lovers: The violinist is an innocent person with a right to life. Unhooking him will result in his death. Therefore, unhooking him is morally wrong."

http://www.bostonreview.net/BR20.3/thomson.html

I thought I had come up with that one myself.

I didnt use the voilinist angle just the angle for being forcefully hooked to another human being.

I could not get anyojne to answer it when I posted it.
 
anyway it'd be cool if a few of you idiots would answer the question instead of rambling like the unconscious proles that you are.
 
First of all, why do you oppose intact dilaction and extraction (the so called partial birth abortion)?

With all due respect, that ought to be a no-brainier.

Partial-birth abortion is a barbaric, gruesome procedure. Even if it were medically necessary under certain circumstances (which is never the case, as I will explain), surely it could be accomplished in a more humane manner.

The vast majority of Americans support the ban. You claim to be a centrist, but you are very far out of touch with the mainstream on a number of issues. This is one which I strongly suggest you reconsider.

It's a life saveing procedure used to saves womens lives.

Absolutely untrue.

Several days are required to complete a partial-birth abortion procedure, as the cervix must first be dilated. Thus, the procedure is never carried out in an emergency to save the life of the mother; she would be dead long before the procedure could be completed. Secondly, partial-birth abortion is an unsafe procedure which puts the life of the mother at even greater risk.

As Drs. M. LeRoy Sprang and Mark G. Neerhof wrote in the Journal of the American Medical Association, "Intact D&X (partial-birth abortion) should not be performed because it is needlessly risky, inhumane, and ethically unacceptable. This procedure is closer to infanticide than it is to abortion."

Both Sprang and Neerhof are pro-choice.

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003 describes it as "a gruesome and inhumane procedure that is never medically necessary."

The right wing advocates who oppose it are #1, ignorant on the topic,

As I have demonstrated, it is you who is ignorant. Furthermore, "right wing advocates" are not alone in their opposition. Centrists, as well as most liberals believe the procedure is unacceptable in a civilized nation. According to a Gallup poll taken in January, 2003, 70% of Americans support the ban.

In the words of Daniel Johnson, Jr., M.D., former President of the American Medical Association (96-97) and World Medical Association (98-99), "the partial delivery of a living fetus for the purpose of killing it outside the womb is ethically offensive to most Americans and physicians."

In conclusion, it is you who is on the fringe.

Those who oppose this medical procedure are almost alway political dupes and rubes who haven't taken the time to inform themselves on this issue properly.

According to Rep. Ron Paul, a gynecologist who during his career delivered over 4,000 babies, there is no medical justification for partial-birth abortion under any circumstances. My grandfather is a retired gynecologist who voices the same opinion. With all due respect, sir, he is a far greater authority on the subject than you.

Acute hydrocephalus is a condition which is terminal to the fetus

That is incorrect. Hydrocephalus is surgically treatable.

and if allowed to continue to term is usually fatal to the mother during delivery.

That is stating the obvious. However, it is possible to drain enough excess fluid from the fetus' head within the womb to ensure safe delivery. And in some cases, the fetus can simply be removed by caesarian section followed by treatment. Both options are safer and infinitely more humane than partial-birth abortion.
 
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With all due respect, that ought to be a no-brainier.

Partial-birth abortion is a barbaric, gruesome procedure. Even if it were medically necessary under certain circumstances (which is never the case, as I will explain), surely it could be accomplished in a more humane manner.

The vast majority of Americans support the ban. You claim to be a centrist, but you are very far out of touch with the mainstream on a number of issues. This is one which I strongly suggest you reconsider.



Absolutely untrue.

Several days are required to complete a partial-birth abortion procedure, as the cervix must first be dilated. Thus, the procedure is never carried out in an emergency to save the life of the mother; she would be dead long before the procedure could be completed. Secondly, partial-birth abortion is an unsafe procedure which puts the life of the mother at even greater risk.

As Drs. M. LeRoy Sprang and Mark G. Neerhof wrote in the Journal of the American Medical Association, "Intact D&X (partial-birth abortion) should not be performed because it is needlessly risky, inhumane, and ethically unacceptable. This procedure is closer to infanticide than it is to abortion."

Both Sprang and Neerhof are pro-choice.

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003 describes it as "a gruesome and inhumane procedure that is never medically necessary."



As I have demonstrated, it is you who is ignorant. Furthermore, "right wing advocates" are not alone in their opposition. Centrists, as well as most liberals believe the procedure is unacceptable in a civilized nation. According to a Gallup poll taken in January, 2003, 70% of Americans support the ban.

In the words of Daniel Johnson, Jr., M.D., former President of the American Medical Association (96-97) and World Medical Association (98-99), "the partial delivery of a living fetus for the purpose of killing it outside the womb is ethically offensive to most Americans and physicians."

In conclusion, it is you who is on the fringe.



According to Rep. Ron Paul, a gynecologist who during his career delivered over 4,000 babies, there is no medical justification for partial-birth abortion under any circumstances. My grandfather is a retired gynecologist who voices the same opinion. With all due respect, sir, he is a far greater authority on the subject than you.



That is incorrect. Hydrocephalus is surgically treatable.



That is stating the obvious. However, it is possible to drain enough excess fluid from the fetus' head within the womb to ensure safe delivery. And in some cases, the fetus can simply be removed by caesarian section followed by treatment. Both options are safer and infinitely more humane than partial-birth abortion.

You are wrong on virtually every count. I did not say "Hydrocephalus" which can be treated with shunts (though not always successfully). I said "Acute Hydrocephalus" and it is not treatable and it's mortality rate is 100% with mother's who deliver said child with ACUTE Hydrocephalus suffering mortality/morbidity rates of nearly 100%. In short a fetus with ACUTE Hydrocephalus is a non-viable fetus. Typical morphology are cranial swelling to around 50 c.m. about 2.5 to 3 times normal. The internal pressures are enormous and ussually liquify the fetuses brain.

So the long and the short of it is Intact D&X is almost always performed on nonviable fetus's that are either all ready dead are cannot nor will not survive outside the womb and also present a great risk of either killing our causing serious injury to the mother if delivered normally (i.e. vaginally).

No one states that Intact D&X is with out risk. As I stated earlier non medical procedure is ever 100% contraindicated. However, there are many advantages to Intact D&X as the next most viable procedure is a histerotomy which is way more invasive with far higher risk and a far higher mortality/morbidity rate then Intact D&X

So you're argument are based on a strawman on the difference between hydrocephalus and non-viable conditions as acute hydrocephalus.

and BTW my source is a OB-GYN Professor at OSU School of Medicine.
 
You are a nut if you believe in saving the lives of women from giving birth to children who could never possibly live outside the womb.

Gotcha.

Right on the fringe.
 
You are wrong on virtually every count.

Did you bother to read my response?

The information I provided wasn't invented in my head; rather, it is backed up by the American Medical Association, World Medical Association, as thousands of experienced gynecologists, a few of whom I know personally. In other words, my statements are supported by credible, experienced medical professionals and institutions. Respectfully, sir, you have nothing on them!

I did not say "Hydrocephalus" which can be treated with shunts (though not always successfully). I said "Acute Hydrocephalus" and it is not treatable and it's mortality rate is 100% with mother's who deliver said child with ACUTE Hydrocephalus suffering mortality/morbidity rates of nearly 100%. In short a fetus with ACUTE Hydrocephalus is a non-viable fetus. Typical morphology are cranial swelling to around 50 c.m. about 2.5 to 3 times normal. The internal pressures are enormous and ussually liquify the fetuses brain.

My mistake. Let's address this, and examine whether partial-birth abortion is the only/safest procedure to alleviate that particular situation.

So the long and the short of it is Intact D&X is almost always performed on nonviable fetus's that are either all ready dead are cannot nor will not survive outside the womb and also present a great risk of either killing our causing serious injury to the mother if delivered normally (i.e. vaginally).

Unfortunately, that is incorrect.

In the United Kingdom, the overwhelming majority of partial-birth abortions (~90%) are purely elective. While *technically* it is permissible only in cases of "medical necessity," there is a clause which also permits it when "risk of grave physical and mental injury to the woman" can be demonstrated. In other words, a woman can simply argue that carrying the infant to term will inflict psychological harm, and the procedure will be carried out by an NHS physician without any questions asked.

In the United States, most physicians who have performed partial-birth abortions will admit that in nearly all cases the procedure is elective. Dr. Martin Haskell is a prime example; he performed in excess of 1000 partial-birth abortions, 80% of which were "purely elective" according to his own words. (Haskell wrote a paper on the subject on behalf of the National Abortion Federation in the early 90s. If you are interested in reading it, I believe it is available online). In an interview with Fr. Frank Pavone (a Catholic pro-life activist), Haskell further admitted that there is fact no medical justification for the procedure.

This refutes your claim that "Intact D&X is used almost exclusively in the case of a fetus with acute hydrocephalus." In fact, acute hydrocephalus is an extremely rare condition. Do the math if you wish. I assure you the number of partial-birth abortions performed (world-wide) greatly exceeds untreatable cases of fetal hydrocephalus.

No one states that Intact D&X is with out risk.

You strongly implied that it is. But, that is because you are ignorant on the subject, as I have thoroughly demonstrated.

Why is it so difficult for you to simply admit that you were wrong?

Clearly we are two mature adults. So far, I've enjoyed our discussion as it has been kept mostly respectful (minus your usual ad-hominem attacks). But if you cannot accept reality for what it is, I see no point in continuing. Your opinion is at odds with the American Medical Association, the World Medical Association, respected and accomplished physicians, Republican and Democratic lawmakers, 70% of the American public, and the Supreme Court of the United States of America. And yet, somehow, it is I who resides on the political fringe? Bullshit!

Those who advocate partial-birth abortion are either terribly misinformed, sadistic, or they have financial interest in the procedure (abortion is big business).

However, there are many advantages to Intact D&X as the next most viable procedure is a histerotomy which is way more invasive with far higher risk and a far higher mortality/morbidity rate then Intact D&X

Again, you are incorrect!

While technically more "invasive" than partial-birth abortion, a hysterotomy presents fewer risks to the woman. In fact, the risks associated with a hysterotomy are, to quote the New York State Department of Health, "among the lowest of any major operation." Hell, even in the January, 1909 edition of the American Journal of Obstetrics, the hysterotomy is noted as being a "safe, quick, and simple operation." (See pages 964-965)

Once removed, the non-viable infant is set aside and permitted to live out its life, no matter how short or long a duration that may be. The point being, it is not for us to decide!

By comparison, the risks of partial-birth abortion include: infection, hemorrhaging (i.e. if the placenta is abrupted), perforation of the uterus, among additional risks. You must understand that the physician performing the procedure cannot "see" what he is doing when he forces the scissors into the fetus' skull. If he misses/slips, severe bleeding, shock, and possibly death may result. According to the 8/26/98 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, partial-birth abortion "should not be performed because it is needlessly risky, inhumane, and ethically unacceptable. This procedure is closer to infanticide than it is to abortion."

Partial-birth abortion is a complicated, risky procedure. Hysterotomies are not complicated and present few risks, and can be performed quickly if need be, whereas partial-birth abortion procedures require 3 days to complete. Sorry, but it's a no-brainer.

In conclusion, even if partial-birth abortion were medically justifiable under certain conditions, it would still be an unsafe, inhumane and ultimately unacceptable procedure. We've abolished hanging, firing squads and gas chambers as methods of execution for criminals because these methods have been deemed inhumane. Even if partial-birth abortion were necessary in some cases, which it is not, surely we could extend the same level of compassion we show to serial killers and rapists to pre-born human beings who have committed no wrong whatsoever.

and BTW my source is a OB-GYN Professor at OSU School of Medicine.

...who is apparently so reputable that you neglect to mention his or her name.

This is so laughable that it warrants no further response.
 
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You are wrong on virtually every count. I did not say "Hydrocephalus" which can be treated with shunts (though not always successfully). I said "Acute Hydrocephalus" and it is not treatable and it's mortality rate is 100% with mother's who deliver said child with ACUTE Hydrocephalus suffering mortality/morbidity rates of nearly 100%. In short a fetus with ACUTE Hydrocephalus is a non-viable fetus. Typical morphology are cranial swelling to around 50 c.m. about 2.5 to 3 times normal. The internal pressures are enormous and ussually liquify the fetuses brain.

So the long and the short of it is Intact D&X is almost always performed on nonviable fetus's that are either all ready dead are cannot nor will not survive outside the womb and also present a great risk of either killing our causing serious injury to the mother if delivered normally (i.e. vaginally).

No one states that Intact D&X is with out risk. As I stated earlier non medical procedure is ever 100% contraindicated. However, there are many advantages to Intact D&X as the next most viable procedure is a histerotomy which is way more invasive with far higher risk and a far higher mortality/morbidity rate then Intact D&X

So you're argument are based on a strawman on the difference between hydrocephalus and non-viable conditions as acute hydrocephalus.

and BTW my source is a OB-GYN Professor at OSU School of Medicine.

Hydrocephalus represents 0.003% of births in America, and 60% of those cases are not "acute." Meanwhile, it is estimated between 3-4,000 D&X abortions were performed last year. So, clearly, this procedure is not used only for the relatively obscure circumstances you described.

Removing a dead fetus does not meet the federal legal definition of "partial-birth abortion," which specifies that partial live delivery must precede "the overt act, other than completion of delivery, that kills the partially delivered living fetus."
 
Hydrocephalus represents 0.003% of births in America, and 60% of those cases are not "acute." Meanwhile, it is estimated between 3-4,000 D&X abortions were performed last year. So, clearly, this procedure is not used only for the relatively obscure circumstances you described.

Bingo. I'm not certain about the 0.003% figure, but your point stands. This is especially true in the United Kingdom.
 
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