Hypothetical Abortion Scenario

Bingo. I'm not certain about the 0.003% figure, but your point stands. This is especially true in the United Kingdom.

Yes, I misread my information, it is actually 0.3% of births which hydrocephalus is diagnosed, but less than half of those are "acute." In any event, it is a markedly small number, and not a justifiable reason to allow any and all D&X procedures.
 
Yes, I misread my information, it is actually 0.3% of births which hydrocephalus is diagnosed, but less than half of those are "acute." In any event, it is a markedly small number, and not a justifiable reason to allow any and all D&X procedures.

Precisely.
 
Did you bother to read my response?

The information I provided wasn't invented in my head; rather, it is backed up by the American Medical Association, World Medical Association, as thousands of experienced gynecologists, a few of whom I know personally. In other words, my statements are supported by credible, experienced medical professionals and institutions. Respectfully, sir, you have nothing on them!



My mistake. Let's address this, and examine whether partial-birth abortion is the only/safest procedure to alleviate that particular situation.



Unfortunately, that is incorrect.

In the United Kingdom, the overwhelming majority of partial-birth abortions (~90%) are purely elective. While *technically* it is permissible only in cases of "medical necessity," there is a clause which also permits it when "risk of grave physical and mental injury to the woman" can be demonstrated. In other words, a woman can simply argue that carrying the infant to term will inflict psychological harm, and the procedure will be carried out by an NHS physician without any questions asked.

In the United States, most physicians who have performed partial-birth abortions will admit that in nearly all cases the procedure is elective. Dr. Martin Haskell is a prime example; he performed in excess of 1000 partial-birth abortions, 80% of which were "purely elective" according to his own words. (Haskell wrote a paper on the subject on behalf of the National Abortion Federation in the early 90s. If you are interested in reading it, I believe it is available online). In an interview with Fr. Frank Pavone (a Catholic pro-life activist), Haskell further admitted that there is fact no medical justification for the procedure.

This refutes your claim that "Intact D&X is used almost exclusively in the case of a fetus with acute hydrocephalus." In fact, acute hydrocephalus is an extremely rare condition. Do the math if you wish. I assure you the number of partial-birth abortions performed (world-wide) greatly exceeds untreatable cases of fetal hydrocephalus.



You strongly implied that it is. But, that is because you are ignorant on the subject, as I have thoroughly demonstrated.

Why is it so difficult for you to simply admit that you were wrong?

Clearly we are two mature adults. So far, I've enjoyed our discussion as it has been kept mostly respectful (minus your usual ad-hominem attacks). But if you cannot accept reality for what it is, I see no point in continuing. Your opinion is at odds with the American Medical Association, the World Medical Association, respected and accomplished physicians, Republican and Democratic lawmakers, 70% of the American public, and the Supreme Court of the United States of America. And yet, somehow, it is I who resides on the political fringe? Bullshit!

Those who advocate partial-birth abortion are either terribly misinformed, sadistic, or they have financial interest in the procedure (abortion is big business).



Again, you are incorrect!

While technically more "invasive" than partial-birth abortion, a hysterotomy presents fewer risks to the woman. In fact, the risks associated with a hysterotomy are, to quote the New York State Department of Health, "among the lowest of any major operation." Hell, even in the January, 1909 edition of the American Journal of Obstetrics, the hysterotomy is noted as being a "safe, quick, and simple operation." (See pages 964-965)

Once removed, the non-viable infant is set aside and permitted to live out its life, no matter how short or long a duration that may be. The point being, it is not for us to decide!

By comparison, the risks of partial-birth abortion include: infection, hemorrhaging (i.e. if the placenta is abrupted), perforation of the uterus, among additional risks. You must understand that the physician performing the procedure cannot "see" what he is doing when he forces the scissors into the fetus' skull. If he misses/slips, severe bleeding, shock, and possibly death may result. According to the 8/26/98 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, partial-birth abortion "should not be performed because it is needlessly risky, inhumane, and ethically unacceptable. This procedure is closer to infanticide than it is to abortion."

Partial-birth abortion is a complicated, risky procedure. Hysterotomies are not complicated and present few risks, and can be performed quickly if need be, whereas partial-birth abortion procedures require 3 days to complete. Sorry, but it's a no-brainer.

In conclusion, even if partial-birth abortion were medically justifiable under certain conditions, it would still be an unsafe, inhumane and ultimately unacceptable procedure. We've abolished hanging, firing squads and gas chambers as methods of execution for criminals because these methods have been deemed inhumane. Even if partial-birth abortion were necessary in some cases, which it is not, surely we could extend the same level of compassion we show to serial killers and rapists to pre-born human beings who have committed no wrong whatsoever.



...who is apparently so reputable that you neglect to mention his or her name.

This is so laughable that it warrants no further response.
I never claimed that it was the only or safest. I only stated that there were many advantages to this procedure in dealing with a non-viable fetus that represented a severe threat to the life and health of the mother which is the condition where Intact D&X, as is the case with acute hydrocephalus, is performed the vast, vast majority of times. As I said NO MEDICAL PROCEDURE IS EVER 100% contraindicated. There are many advantages in extreme cases like this over procedures, such as, hysterotemy's as intact D&X is far less invasive and there for less risky.

I also defy you to provide a link or credible reference showing the AMA's opposition to Intact D&X (D&E) in extreme circumstances. House report 108-058 on the partial birth abortion ban of 2003 states the exact opposite in that both the AMA and the ACOBGYN both consider this the safest procedure for extreme cases, such as, acute hydrocephaluse.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpque...r_n=hr058.108&db_id=108&item=&sel=TOC_297847&

So in this case you are wrong and the AMA does no support the position you stated.

But that's not my concern here. My concern is that some idiot like Dixie will think he knows enough to play amature Doctor here and will end up killing people. My point is that legislatures, with few notable exceptions, are hardly competent to play Doctor.
 
anyway it'd be cool if a few of you idiots would answer the question instead of rambling like the unconscious proles that you are.

Even hypotheticals require possibility, I cannot answer as unlike the moral midgets who judge another while doing nothing to help, I am unable to conceive and will never be faced with this very hard decision. Plus I'm past menopause. Neither will you and neither will most of the people who use abortion as a moral crutch.

Abortion remains the hypocrite's crutch so they can feel superior thinking about cells while bombing living, breathing, feeling children with the same high mindedness and moral superiority.
 
I only stated that there were many advantages to this procedure in dealing with a non-viable fetus that represented a severe threat to the life and health of the mother which is the condition where Intact D&X, as is the case with acute hydrocephalus, is performed the vast, vast majority of times.

And your assertion was incorrect, as I demonstrated.

There are many advantages in extreme cases like this over procedures, such as, hysterotemy's as intact D&X is far less invasive and there for less risky.

I have already proven to the contrary; simply because a procedure is less invasive does not mean that it carries fewer risks. But, remain ignorant if you wish.

I also defy you to provide a link or credible reference showing the AMA's opposition to Intact D&X (D&E) in extreme circumstances.

With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. D&X and D&E are two entirely different procedures. During a D&E procedure, the contents of the uterus are surgically evacuated avoiding partial delivery (i.e. the fetus is no longer intact).

House report 108-058 on the partial birth abortion ban of 2003 states the exact opposite in that both the AMA and the ACOBGYN both consider this the safest procedure for extreme cases, such as, acute hydrocephaluse.

Generally speaking, the AMA won't take a stance on bills which involve criminal penalties; they are a medical institution, not a legal one. Nevertheless, had you bothered to read my post, you would know that I have repeatedly quoted the Journal of the American Medical Association as well as a former President of the AMA to support my claims. In the 8/26/98 issue of the Journal, for example, it is stated that "Intact D&X should not be performed because it is needlessly risky, inhumane, and ethically unacceptable."

They continue, "This procedure is closer to infanticide than it is to abortion."

In 1995, American Medical Association's Council on Legislation unanimously condemned the procedure, concluding that "the procedure is basically repulsive, and anyone who has seen this procedure described, anyone who understands the way this procedure is performed, would have to come to that conclusion in the end." They further note that partial-birth abortion is "not a recognized medical procedure."

As President Daniel Johnson, Jr., M.D, former President of the AMA and WMA pointed out, "the partial delivery of a living fetus for the purpose of killing it outside the womb is ethically offensive to most Americans and physicians."

The documentation you provided reveals what I previously stated, which is that the American Medical Association "does not support any criminal abortion ban legislation." That is why they withdrew their support for the legislation.

So in this case you are wrong and the AMA does no support the position you stated.

Had I contended that the AMA sought criminal penalties for physicians who perform the procedure, you would be correct. I made no such assertion. Nice try, though.

But that's not my concern here. My concern is that some idiot like Dixie will think he knows enough to play amature Doctor here and will end up killing people.

Let's behave like adults; there is no justification for personal attacks.

Surely you're better than that.
 
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You guys think any abortion procedure is murder though. It doesn't matter if it's intact D&X or not. I don't even care if it is sometimes used in other instances - it still has the same end result, and it's stupid to oppose something simply because of the method. And the fact is the third trimester abortions can ONLY be performed when the health of the mother is at risk. Putting even one mothers life at risk by banning this procedure would be a greater tragedy than this procedure being used to abort in every case possible.
 
Even hypotheticals require possibility, I cannot answer as unlike the moral midgets who judge another while doing nothing to help, I am unable to conceive and will never be faced with this very hard decision. Plus I'm past menopause. Neither will you and neither will most of the people who use abortion as a moral crutch.

Abortion remains the hypocrite's crutch so they can feel superior thinking about cells while bombing living, breathing, feeling children with the same high mindedness and moral superiority.

I am morally superior to you, Midcan. You constantly ably the slave master argument to babies, claiming they will live in a world that doesn't care for them, and that they are better off dead. That is evil.
 
Even hypotheticals require possibility, I cannot answer as unlike the moral midgets who judge another while doing nothing to help, I am unable to conceive and will never be faced with this very hard decision. Plus I'm past menopause. Neither will you and neither will most of the people who use abortion as a moral crutch.

Abortion remains the hypocrite's crutch so they can feel superior thinking about cells while bombing living, breathing, feeling children with the same high mindedness and moral superiority.

you're a girl? wow i just learned this. that's weird.
 
You guys think any abortion procedure is murder though. It doesn't matter if it's intact D&X or not. I don't even care if it is sometimes used in other instances - it still has the same end result, and it's stupid to oppose something simply because of the method. And the fact is the third trimester abortions can ONLY be performed when the health of the mother is at risk. Putting even one mothers life at risk by banning this procedure would be a greater tragedy than this procedure being used to abort in every case possible.

um just by sheer numbers I think the lives of viable BABIES is more important than one mother.

I dont' believe "all abortions are murder" so you better not lump me into that category. I'm talking about partial birth abortions in which you have a developed viable baby that can live outside the womb, and you are killing it.

Also tabasco completely owned this thread and destroyed anyone in his path
 
And the fact is the third trimester abortions can ONLY be performed when the health of the mother is at risk.

As has been pointed out, it's very easy for a mother to claim "mental distress" and have that qualify as a "danger to the life of the mother"

Tabasco also pointed out how 90% of partial birth abortions are elective.
 
Yes please, lets bring on more abortions! In fact, I think all liberals should abort their children, one less tax and spender!
 
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