Iraqi Soldier Who Killed U.S. Troops is a Hero in Iraq

Cypress

Well-known member
I don't know what the actual facts of what happened were. All I know is that perception trumps reality 99% of the time.

And I know that McCain is full of shit, that we can stay in Iraq for a thousand years "if they stop attacking us". He knows that's BS. They're not going to stop attacking us. They're not going to accept a large, longterm military presence.


Iraqi Soldier Who Killed U.S. Troops is a Hero in Iraq

By Ali Al-Fadhily, IPS News. Posted January 8, 2008.

The story of an Iraqi soldier defending a pregnant woman against U.S. troops is front page news in Iraq.


The recent killing of two U.S. soldiers by their Iraqi colleague has raised disturbing questions about U.S. military relations with the Iraqis they work with.

On Dec. 26, an Iraqi soldier opened fire on U.S. soldiers accompanying him during a joint military patrol in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. He killed the U.S. captain and another sergeant, and wounded three others, including an Iraqi interpreter.

Conflicting versions of the killing have arisen. Col. Hazim al-Juboory, uncle of the attacker Kaissar Saady al-Juboory, told IPS that his nephew at first watched the U.S. soldiers beat up an Iraqi woman. When he asked them to stop, they refused, so he opened fire.

"Kaissar is a professional soldier who revolted against the Americans when they dragged a woman by her hair in a brutal way," Col. Juboory said. "He is a tribal man, and an Arab with honor who would not accept such behavior. He killed his captain and sergeant knowing that he would be executed."

Others gave IPS a similar account. "I was there when the American captain and his soldiers raided a neighborhood and started shouting at women to tell them where some men they wanted were," a resident of Mosul, speaking on condition of anonymity, told IPS on phone. "The women told them they did not know, and their men did not do anything wrong, and started crying in fear."

The witness said the U.S. captain began to shout at his soldiers and the women, and his men then started to grab the women and pull them by their hair.

"The soldier we knew later to be Kaissar shouted at the Americans, 'No, no,' but the captain shouted back at the Iraqi soldier," the witness told IPS. "Then the Iraqi soldier shouted, 'Let go of the women, you sons of bitches,' and started shooting at them." The soldier, he said, then ran off.

The Association of Muslim Scholars, a Sunni organization, issued a statement saying the Iraqi soldier had shot the U.S. soldiers after he saw them beat up a pregnant woman.

"His blood rose and he asked the occupying soldiers to stop beating the woman," they said in the statement. "Their answer through the translator was: 'We will do what we want.' So he opened fire on them."

The story was first reported on al-Rafidain satellite channel. That started Iraqis from all over the country talking about "the hero" who sacrificed his life for Iraqi honor.

The U.S. and Iraqi military told a different version of the story.

An Iraqi general told reporters that Kaissar carried out the attack because he had links to "Sunni Arab insurgent groups."

"Soldier Kaissar Saady worked for insurgent groups who pushed him to learn army movements and warn his comrades about them," a captain of the second Iraqi army division told IPS. "There are so many like him in the army and now within the so-called Awakening forces (militias funded by the U.S. military)."

One army officer speaking on condition of anonymity described Kaissar's act as heroic. "Those Americans learned their lesson once more."

Sheikh Juma' al-Dawar, chief of the major al-Baggara tribe in Iraq, told IPS in Baghdad that "Kaissar is from the al-Juboor tribes in Gayara -- tribes with morals that Americans do not understand."

The tribal chief added, "Juboor tribes and all other tribes are proud of Kaissar and what he did by killing the American soldiers. Now he is a hero, with a name that will never be forgotten."


continued

http://alternet.org/waroniraq/72996/
 
We don't have half the story, and he didn't half to carry out an execution-style killing. He could've handled the situation differently. Just shooting people haphazardly because you have a feeling something bad is going on is a simple minded way to deal with things that I'm all too familiar with in Mississippi. I don't know how you could call him a hero.
 
US troops just randomly pulling out pregnant women and beating them up for the fun of it? A part of the story is missing here, I assure you.
 
We don't have half the story, and he didn't half to carry out an execution-style killing. He could've handled the situation differently. Just shooting people haphazardly because you have a feeling something bad is going on is a simple minded way to deal with things that I'm all too familiar with in Mississippi. I don't know how you could call him a hero.


I think the point of the post is not that Cypress thinks he is a hero, but that, based on what the Iraqis are hearing, the Iraqis view him as a hero.
 
We don't have half the story, and he didn't half to carry out an execution-style killing. He could've handled the situation differently. Just shooting people haphazardly because you have a feeling something bad is going on is a simple minded way to deal with things that I'm all too familiar with in Mississippi. I don't know how you could call him a hero.

I didn't call him a hero, and I said perception trumps reality. Many Iraqis are only quite willing to believe stories (exaggerated or not) about the brutaility of foreign occupying soldiers.

Its not a stretch to say that perception trumps reality, and in the final analysis, that's what ends up counting. 50 million americans were convinced by swiftboaters 4 truth, that Kerry was a coward in battle, faked injuries to get medals, and fleed from battle everytime shots were fired.
 
I think the point of the post is not that Cypress thinks he is a hero, but that, based on what the Iraqis are hearing, the Iraqis view him as a hero.

Yep it is kinda hard to believe that the Bush bunch thought we would be greeted in Iraq with cheering crowds and flowers....
 
I didn't call him a hero, and I said perception trumps reality. Many Iraqis are only quite willing to believe stories (exaggerated or not) about the brutaility of foreign occupying soldiers.

Its not a stretch to say that perception trumps reality, and in the final analysis, that's what ends up counting. 50 million americans were convinced by swiftboaters 4 truth, that Kerry was a coward in battle, faked injuries to get medals, and fleed from battle everytime shots were fired.

Are you implying that Kerry's positions had nothing to do with him losing?
 
Lets evaluate shall we. Lets say, for the sake of argument the story is true. In that case the guy whether he was Iraqi or American was a hero. He saw a violation of the law and of the military code, it was being carried out by a superior who he yelled at to stop. When they did not stop and continued to harm the woman, he protected her life with deadly force. There should have been a hearing and he should have been tried.

Now lets say this story is not true. Then what we have is an iraqi soldier who for whatever reason opened fire on his American superiors and murdered them in cold blood and the Iraqi's, those people who ANYDAY now are going to greet us in the streets with flowers and call us liberators, are cheering this guy, standing up for him, and lying on his behalf to alter public opinion in Iraq. On a scale of 1 to 10 what kind of sucess is this?
 
The view from the other side is a bit different.....

Yes, I know...

But to me, situations like this are morally ambigious at best. He stopped the violence but he caused pain himself. Now, you know, there may be children without fathers. He may have believed something was going on that wasn't.

It's a sad tale, all the way around. And now, from the reaction, the Iraqui's are turning against us. This is certainly warning signs that it's time to head out.
 
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Lets evaluate shall we. Lets say, for the sake of argument the story is true. In that case the guy whether he was Iraqi or American was a hero. He saw a violation of the law and of the military code, it was being carried out by a superior who he yelled at to stop. When they did not stop and continued to harm the woman, he protected her life with deadly force. There should have been a hearing and he should have been tried.

Now lets say this story is not true. Then what we have is an iraqi soldier who for whatever reason opened fire on his American superiors and murdered them in cold blood and the Iraqi's, those people who ANYDAY now are going to greet us in the streets with flowers and call us liberators, are cheering this guy, standing up for him, and lying on his behalf to alter public opinion in Iraq. On a scale of 1 to 10 what kind of sucess is this?

You really love the use of deadly force, don't you?
 
You really love the use of deadly force, don't you?
To stop what I percieve as deadly force? You betchya. If you break into my house where my child and his mother are sleeping I am going to kill you. No questions asked. IF the story is true then the iraqi soldier MUST have believed that the only way to stop the incident was to use deadly force. There should have been an investigation and a determination made. If he used unnecessary force then they can punish him. But had he stood around and done nothing we would not know a thing about the alleged incident. Again, if this is true.
 
To stop what I percieve as deadly force? You betchya. If you break into my house where my child and his mother are sleeping I am going to kill you. No questions asked. IF the story is true then the iraqi soldier MUST have believed that the only way to stop the incident was to use deadly force. There should have been an investigation and a determination made. If he used unnecessary force then they can punish him. But had he stood around and done nothing we would not know a thing about the alleged incident. Again, if this is true.

You have a simple mind Soc..

This situation isn't black and white. Why would he have "murdered them in cold blood"? It's reasons like this why the application of deadly force needs to be clearly limited by law to only instances where it can save a life.
 
Are you implying that Kerry's positions had nothing to do with him losing?

Yes, he is. 50 million people didn't vote fore Kerry because of the swift boat ads. They all, of course, would have voted for him otherwise. If not for the swiftboat ads, Kerry would have gotten 100% of the popular vote.
 
You have a simple mind Soc..

This situation isn't black and white. Why would he have "murdered them in cold blood"?
If they were harming her and did not stop then it would not be in cold blood. You do know the definition of cold blooded murder don't you. Without provocation or excuse in a cold unemotional manner. Defending the life of another is by its very definition NOT in cold blood.
 
Lets evaluate shall we. Lets say, for the sake of argument the story is true. In that case the guy whether he was Iraqi or American was a hero. He saw a violation of the law and of the military code, it was being carried out by a superior who he yelled at to stop. When they did not stop and continued to harm the woman, he protected her life with deadly force. There should have been a hearing and he should have been tried.

Now lets say this story is not true. Then what we have is an iraqi soldier who for whatever reason opened fire on his American superiors and murdered them in cold blood and the Iraqi's, those people who ANYDAY now are going to greet us in the streets with flowers and call us liberators, are cheering this guy, standing up for him, and lying on his behalf to alter public opinion in Iraq. On a scale of 1 to 10 what kind of sucess is this?

Bingo.

It's FUBAR, and McCain's lying his ass off to suggest iraqis "might" stop attacking, so we can stay there (with the oil of course) for a thousand years. He's setting the american people up for a permanent occupation.

The dude went to the naval academy. He knows military history, and he knows the odds of the iraqis simply stopping attacking us is remote, at best.
 
If they were harming her and did not stop then it would not be in cold blood. You do know the definition of cold blooded murder don't you. Without provocation or excuse in a cold unemotional manner. Defending the life of another is by its very definition NOT in cold blood.

Soc, I've seen you advocate the use of ridiculously unnecessary deadly force in cases of vote tampering.
 
Bingo.

It's FUBAR, and McCain's lying his ass off to suggest iraqis "might" stop attacking, so we can stay there (with the oil of course) for a thousand years. He's setting the american people up for a permanent occupation.

The dude went to the naval academy. He knows military history, and he knows the odds of the iraqis simply stopping attacking us is remote, at best.

Exactly.
 
Soc, I've seen you advocate the use of ridiculously unnecessary deadly force in cases of vote tampering.
Yes I have done that before. That being said, this was not, if true, protecting the ballot box, this was protecting the life of another human being. So while you might shudder and my advocacy of deadly force to protect the legitimacy of our form of government, it has NOTHING to do with the protecting of an innocent life.
 
Yes I have done that before. That being said, this was not, if true, protecting the ballot box, this was protecting the life of another human being. So while you might shudder and my advocacy of deadly force to protect the legitimacy of our form of government, it has NOTHING to do with the protecting of an innocent life.

Protecting the legitimacy of our government doesn't require deadly force. A gun is only marginally more effective that a taser at stopping someone from tampering with a ballot box and a taser has the advantage that it doesn't kill people. Maybe you don't value human life, but I do, no matter who's life it is. Deadly force should ONLY be used whenever it is clear that it's the only way to protect another person from dying. Period.

Whether or not this was the case here depends on whether or not something was made up. As the story stands, it sounds ridiculous.
 
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