Is the Big Bang the best explanation for how our universe started?

[Dutch Uncle]

The Demiurge, the creator, also a concept of Gnosticism. I read once, can’t remember if it was Pagels or Armstrong that Yahweh is the Demiurge and the Supreme Being is unknowable.

Interesting. I did not know that Demiurge found it's way into Gnostic mythology.

I like Karen Armstrong's books!

Agreed with the concept the supreme being is unknowable. The Demiurge concept is interesting but I see it as an extension of the Supreme Being as opposed to being a lesser being in charge of our Universe.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed with the concept the supreme being is unknowable. The Demiurge concept is interesting but I see it as an extension of the Supreme Being as opposed to being a lesser being in charge of our Universe.

I am wondering if the Gnostics felt the Demiurge was evil. The Gnostics were strict dualists, who felt there was an even balance between good and evil - material being evil and the transcendent being good. If Demiurge was the agent who fashioned the material world, I wonder if Gnostics considered that the evil side of the Ying and Yang dualism.

 

[Phantasmal]

Interesting. I did not know that Demiurge found it's way into Gnostic mythology.

I like Karen Armstrong's books!

It was Elaine Pagels, “The Gnostic Gospels” in case you’re interested. It’s a quick read, very informative.

 

[Phantasmal]

I am wondering if the Gnostics felt the Demiurge was evil. The Gnostics were strict dualists, who felt there was an even balance between good and evil - material being evil and the transcendent being good. If Demiurge was the agent who fashioned the material world, I wonder if Gnostics considered that the evil side of the Ying and Yang dualism.

If I remember, correctly, they did!

 

[Cypress]

Evolution is only a theory, sweetums.

Evolution has been observed in real time under both laboratory and field conditions.

As a theory, evolution is even much stronger than the Big Bang theory, essentially elevating it to an accepted tenet of science, although many questions remain as active areas of research.

 

[Cypress]

If I remember, correctly, they did!

I like your brain!

 

[Cypress]

It was Elaine Pagels, “The Gnostic Gospels” in case you’re interested. It’s a quick read, very informative.

Thank you for the tip! I have always admire your taste in reading!

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I am wondering if the Gnostics felt the Demiurge was evil. The Gnostics were strict dualists, who felt there was an even balance between good and evil - material being evil and the transcendent being good. If Demiurge was the agent who fashioned the material world, I wonder if Gnostics considered that the evil side of the Ying and Yang dualism.

The Gnostics got wiped out pretty early and don't seem to have really solidified their beliefs as, what became, mainstream Christianity after the 4th Century.

Their views seem to back the idea that Jesus had extensive exposure to Buddhist philosophy. Perhaps gained in his travels between age 12 and age 33.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωστικός, romanized: gnōstikós, Koine Greek: [ɣnostiˈkos], 'having knowledge') is a collection of religious ideas and systems which coalesced in the late 1st century AD among Jewish and early Christian sects. These various groups emphasized personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) above the orthodox teachings, traditions, and authority of religious institutions. Viewing material existence as flawed or evil, Gnostic cosmogony generally presents a distinction between a supreme, hidden God and a malevolent lesser divinity (sometimes associated with the Yahweh of the Old Testament) who is responsible for creating the material universe. Gnostics considered the principal element of salvation to be direct knowledge of the supreme divinity in the form of mystical or esoteric insight. Many Gnostic texts deal not in concepts of sin and repentance, but with illusion and enlightenment.

Gnostic writings flourished among certain Christian groups in the Mediterranean world around the second century, when the Fathers of the early Church denounced them as heresy.

 

[Cypress]

The Gnostics got wiped out pretty early and don't seem to have really solidified their beliefs as, what became, mainstream Christianity after the 4th Century.

Their views seem to back the idea that Jesus had extensive exposure to Buddhist philosophy. Perhaps gained in his travels between age 12 and age 33.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

It's hard to believe a 1st century AD Galilean peasant would have made it all the way to Nepal and back, but it would be really cool if true.

I think another possibility is that the Jews (and by extension, Jesus) got their concepts of mind-body dualism and the nature of the enteral soul from the Greeks during the Second Temple period, after Alexander and the Greeks conquered the lands of the Levant.

--> And the Greeks and Sanskrit-speaking Indians in turn got the concept of body-soul dualism from the Neolithic Aryan tribes of the Eurasian steppes who eventually migrated into Europe and northern India.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

It's hard to believe a 1st century AD Galilean peasant would have made it all the way to Nepal and back, but it would be really cool if true.

I think another possibility is that the Jews (and by extension, Jesus) got their concepts of mind-body dualism and the nature of the enteral soul from the Greeks during the Second Temple period, after Alexander and the Greeks conquered the lands of the Levant.

--> And the Greeks and Sanskrit-speaking Indians in turn got the concept of body-soul dualism from the Neolithic Aryan tribes of the Eurasian steppes who eventually migrated into Europe and northern India.

The Silk Road existed in Jesus's time. He wouldn't have to go Nepal to learn Buddhism since it had spread in over 400 years of existence. Jesus could have picked it up in Damascus or anywhere along the Silk Road from a mentor.

No doubt, as you pointed out, Jesus could have picked other ideas in his travels. The difference between the OT and the NT is as different as Night and Day. Jesus probably picked up his Eastern philosophy or enlightened ideas from foreigners.

 

[Cypress]

The Silk Road existed in Jesus's time. He wouldn't have to go Nepal to learn Buddhism since it had spread in over 400 years of existence. Jesus could have picked it up in Damascus or anywhere along the Silk Road from a mentor.

No doubt, as you pointed out, Jesus could have picked other ideas in his travels. The difference between the OT and the NT is as different as Night and Day. Jesus probably picked up his Eastern philosophy or enlightened ideas from foreigners.

Good points.


But another explanation is that Greek Hellenism found it's way into Jewish thought during the late second temple period. And that influenced the New Testament. The idea of the eternal soul, the universal good, and mind-body dualism come straight from Plato and Platonic thought.

Jesus wouldn't have had to travel anywhere. The Greek Selucids were basically ruling Israel and the Eastern Mediterranean Levant, and Greek culture, language, and thought was being widely spread.

 

[Matt Dillon]

Evolution has been observed in real time under both laboratory and field conditions.

As a theory, evolution is even much stronger than the Big Bang theory, essentially elevating it to an accepted tenet of science, although many questions remain as active areas of research.

Not in any type of meaningful way.

Anything involving mammals? Amphibians? Fish?

No?

 

[Cypress]

Not in any type of meaningful way.

Anything involving mammals? Amphibians? Fish?

No?

Yes, rapid evolution by natural selection has been observed in bacteria, insects, and fish in both laboratory and field conditions.

The studies with E Coli bacteria, fruit flies, peppered moths in England, and guppies in streams of Trinidad are a few of many examples.

 

[Matt Dillon]

Yes, rapid evolution by natural selection has been observed in bacteria, insects, and fish in both laboratory and field conditions.

The studies with E Coli bacteria, fruit flies, peppered moths in England, and guppies in streams of Trinidad are a few of many examples.

Nothing with mammalia, amphibians and birds, aye?

 

[Cypress]

Nothing with mammalia, amphibians and birds, aye?

I haven't spent four years in a university graduate program and familiarized myself with the global body of scientific literature on the subject.


But your position apparently is that insects and fish evolve, but mammals and birds don't.

That is a position that would be laughed out of any research university in the country.

 

[Matt Dillon]

I haven't spent four years in a university graduate program and familiarized myself with the global body of scientific literature on the subject.


But your position apparently is that insects and fish evolve, but mammals and birds don't.

That is a position that would be laughed out of any research university in the country.

Oh go fuck yourself. Fish don't evolve, either.

Total bullshit. Insects and bacteria maybe adapt here and there, and that's as far as it goes.

Where's that guppy study? I'll rip it apart.

PS: Guppies are of zero actual value to humanity, aside from the pleasure of keeping one.

Nobody eats smoked guppies.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Oh go fuck yourself. Fish don't evolve, either.

Total bullshit. Insects and bacteria maybe adapt here and there, and that's as far as it goes.

Where's that guppy study? I'll rip it apart.

PS: Guppies are of zero actual value to humanity, aside from the pleasure of keeping one.

Nobody eats smoked guppies.

Dude, Cypress is correct.

 

[Matt Dillon]

Dude, Cypress is correct.

Bah, you're blinded by bullshit, too. Also pretty dumb.

 

[Cypress]

Oh go fuck yourself. Fish don't evolve, either.

Total bullshit. Insects and bacteria maybe adapt here and there, and that's as far as it goes.

Where's that guppy study? I'll rip it apart.

PS: Guppies are of zero actual value to humanity, aside from the pleasure of keeping one.

Nobody eats smoked guppies.

You should present your data and conclusions to a prestigious peer reviewed scientific journal for review and publication, because your conclusion that biological evolution is bullshit would be the most important and unexpected scientific discovery of the century.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Bah, you're blinded by bullshit, too. Also pretty dumb.

You're free to wrap yourself in plastic and sit in a closet until it's all over, Matt.